Two Questions

[mikesears]

I have two questions from my high school varsity level game on Friday.

1st play
After team A scores on a long run or pass, they begin to huddle. As the R, I am taking care of getting up to the huddle, signaling untimed down, etc. Team A has now been in the huddle for 10 seconds or so (I think they couldn't decide if they were trying for 1 or 2 points). As I turn around to begin counting players, a team A player quickly moves out of the huddle and immediately heads over to the sideline because he is the twelfth man in the huddle. As he is exiting the field, team A breaks the huddle with the remaining 11 players. Of course team B is screaming that they can't break the huddle with 12 players.

Game-wise, would anybody here flag this as illegal substitution?

I didn't flag it because it didn't decieve anyone and I had no idea when that player had entered the huddle.

2nd play

This is more of a hypothetical question based upon a kid's explanation to his coach about why he fouled in the game.

Down and distance are really unimportant to this question.

A1 is running 20-25 yards ahead of a lineman after a long gain (or touchdown). Lineman A76 is pursuing a defender and as he approaches him from behind, he trips over his own feet and solidy contacts pursuing defender B1 with first contact in the back (a) above the waist (b) or below the waist, and knocks him down.

Are you flagging?



(This is hypothetical because the player didn't trip. He blocked the defender in the back and knocked him to the ground and THEN tripped and I flagged it).

[jumpmaster]

1st play - I got nothing. The 12th man left prior to the huddle being broken.

2nd play - At first I thought flag, but after thinking on this a little more I have changed my mind. You have a clumsy kid who tripped and had illegal contact that did not affect the play. I have nothing. On the other hand, if B1 had could reasonably impacted the play, I would then flag. This comes down to judgement and I would apply the same logic as applied to pass interferance on the opposite side of the field.

[Theisey]

play-1) It's obvious that team-Bs coach is watching too many NCAA games as NF has no rule about breaking the huddle with twelve.
However, a replaced player must leave immediately, this probably didn't happen. Should be flagged for illegal substitution. But if you really did not see the sub enter the field, You'll have to take the heat from coach of team-B for missing this. I'm guessing the player was there from the getgo. You're wing man on that side should have noticed.

play-2) I might let the block in (a) slide, but not the block in (b). Clips in the open field are dangerous blocks.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Theisey
play-1) It's obvious that team-Bs coach is watching too many NCAA games as NF has no rule about breaking the huddle with twelve.

Agreed. He also wanted a 15 yard penalty for this (thinking it was illegal participation). It really didn't matter because they went for 2, a team A player held during the try and was penalized 10 yards, then they kicked the extra point.


However, a replaced player must leave immediately, this probably didn't happen. Should be flagged for illegal substitution. But if you really did not see the sub enter the field, You'll have to take the heat from coach of team-B for missing this. I'm guessing the player was there from the getgo.

I think he was in there too, but I wasn't sure. It was a second or two before any player left the huddle and a second or two after that when the huddle "broke".

You're wing man on that side should have noticed.

So you are saying a wing official should have noticed this and flagged it? After first downs, or long scores, how quickly should the R begin his count? What routine do you other R's go through after first downs or scores?

[Axe Man]

Mike, as a new white hat on my crew, we have worked hard to slow me down. I try hard on each play to count players before I blow the ready for play. I don't always make it but I try. My umpire also is counting so he usually has the count before I do. On a try, it is untimed so I don't feel there is a problem taking a few extra moments to make sure things are correct. I won't blow the ready if a tee is present until my crew is set. Coaches may thing this is giving an unfair advantage to the offense but I would rather us be set and ready for what is coming than have a problem.

[Rich]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
1st play - I got nothing. The 12th man left prior to the huddle being broken.

2nd play - At first I thought flag, but after thinking on this a little more I have changed my mind. You have a clumsy kid who tripped and had illegal contact that did not affect the play. I have nothing. On the other hand, if B1 had could reasonably impacted the play, I would then flag. This comes down to judgement and I would apply the same logic as applied to pass interferance on the opposite side of the field.

(1) This is irrelevant (that they broke with 11). A replaced player must leave immediately. If there were 12 in the huddle for "too long" (and only the referee decides what that is), it should be a dead ball foul for Illegal Subsitution.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Theisey
play-2) I might let the block in (a) slide, but not the block in (b). Clips in the open field are dangerous blocks.

Agreed. If the IBB had no effect on the play and it wasn't a "safety-related" foul, I'd be inclined to pass on it. Below the waist? It's coming back.

--Rich

[ljudge]

Our rules interpreter made it very clear, crystal clear the other night that breaking the huddle with 12 players is NOT necessarily Illegal Substitution. That's not to say we don't flag for IS when the huddle breaks with 12. His explanation was the definition of "immediately." He suggests we use 3 to 5 seconds as determining if a player left immediately. If a sub comes in and the huddle suddenly breaks in say 2-3 seconds or so with 12 players then you have nothing. He didn't violate the rule of not immediately leaving the huddle.

[SouthGARef]

Did they gain an advantage in doing this? Evidently not. Under the example you gave, you were coming up to the line and had not yet counted or blown the ready for play. There was still a good 10 to 20 seconds left until the ball was going to be snapped when the 12th player left the game.

He left the huddle before it "broke" and everyone on the defensive team (including the coach from at least 25 yards away) knew he wasn't participating. The intent of the rule is to keep the defense from lining up to cover 12 and then causing confusion. They didn't do that here. Under the rules, black and white, yes it is a foul. But especially in high school games, we can't call games black and white. Call a) what's obvious b) what gains an advantage c) what affects safety. I don't think this situation falls under any of those categories.

As far as the tripper, if the contact was above the waist I'd say to let it go if I knew for SURE that he did trip (which you shouldn't be throwing the flag if you didn't see the whole play in the first place). Especially if this contact was way behind the play like you said. If it's below the waist, I think we have to throw it. There are too many ways to get hurt if you get hit from behind and below the waist.

[Rich]

Originally posted by SouthGARef
Did they gain an advantage in doing this? Evidently not. Under the example you gave, you were coming up to the line and had not yet counted or blown the ready for play. There was still a good 10 to 20 seconds left until the ball was going to be snapped when the 12th player left the game.

He left the huddle before it "broke" and everyone on the defensive team (including the coach from at least 25 yards away) knew he wasn't participating. The intent of the rule is to keep the defense from lining up to cover 12 and then causing confusion. They didn't do that here. Under the rules, black and white, yes it is a foul. But especially in high school games, we can't call games black and white. Call a) what's obvious b) what gains an advantage c) what affects safety. I don't think this situation falls under any of those categories.

As far as the tripper, if the contact was above the waist I'd say to let it go if I knew for SURE that he did trip (which you shouldn't be throwing the flag if you didn't see the whole play in the first place). Especially if this contact was way behind the play like you said. If it's below the waist, I think we have to throw it. There are too many ways to get hurt if you get hit from behind and below the waist.

Who's to say that the offense didn't get an advantage. Part of the perceived advantage could be that it took longer for the defense to determine who the 11 players are?

My guideline is 2-3 seconds, typically. And if it's before I blow the RFP, I'm likely not going to notice it at all if the team's in the huddle.

[Jim S]

Mike, how often on a try do you see the defense change personel depending on what personel the offense puts on the field? The purpose of the rule is to keep the offense from loading personel onto the field thereby confusing the defense and preventing them from getting the players on that they might want.
In the case of a try we have the teams at the far ed of the field and the probablility that the defense wouldn't even try to change.
No harm, no foul in this case.
We use discretion in calling all sorts of 'real' fouls. This should be another one.

[JugglingReferee]

Play 1

Having an extra player in the huddle is not a foul in the Canadian game. A flag for Illegal Substitution is thrown at the snap of the ball in there are 13 or more players, but even if the 13th player is running off the field, but still on the field, and is sufficiently away from the play (possibly limited to within 10 yards, or so, of the sideline), I don't have a flag.


Play 2

(a) if the action of the defender falling is slight, I will let it go, as it had no impact on the play, but I will be talking to the A player. If it is not slight, it is a flag. Illegal Block, 10y from PBH if YG, 10 yards from PLS is YNG.

(b) Flag. Blocking from the Rear. Same application as (a), but 15 yards instead of 10.

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

(1) This is irrelevant (that they broke with 11). A replaced player must leave immediately. If there were 12 in the huddle for "too long" (and only the referee decides what that is), it should be a dead ball foul for Illegal Subsitution.

the mechanic I was taught was if a huddle is broken with 12 players it is illegal substitution. Therefore, if there if a player leaves the huddle before the huddle breaks, I have no foul. In reality, as my timing gets better as a WH, I am more consious of this situation.

[dumbref]

Play 1

This is tricky, but there is order to the process.

2-30-15 states: ... a substitute becomes a player when he enters the field and communicates with a teammate or an official, enters the huddle, ...

2-30-12 states: A replaced player is one who has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field. >>>

3-7-2 states: ... Replaced players shall leave the field immediately.

The key words that ties this together is communicates and notified. "leave the field immediately" does not begin until the communication happens. We should allow some reasonable amount of time for that communication, yes even confusion to occur. We have drawn the line in the sand at breaking the huddle with 12.

Play 2:
I can not find a rule against clumsy. If the contact was unintentional and did not affect the play, it is incidental contact in my book. Now, the B player does not know that. So getting to this situation to insure it does not escalate into something much worse is paramount. I’m not sure anyone has made that point.

Another point is see the whole play. Know what cause the trip.