Snapping and adjusting the ball. - Page 2

Theisey · #16 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 23, 2004, 01:23pm

NCAA: It's spelled out very clearly in rule 7, the snapper may not lift the ball.

SoGARef · #17 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 23, 2004, 01:48pm

You beat me to it, Theisey.

Rule 7.1.3.a.1b states:

"The snapper may not lift the ball, move it beyond the neutral zone or simulate the start of a play."

mikesears · #18 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 23, 2004, 02:48pm

Learn something new every time here.

Thanks for clarifying. I guess we sometimes get some rules cross-over when we work both NF and NCAA. I just told a coach in a scrimmage on Friday that his player couldn't pick the ball up to adjust it. I was wrong and just sent a note to the coach with the correct information.

I am glad you asked this question Jeff!

Theisey · #19 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 23, 2004, 05:07pm

Exactly how did you phrase the response to the coach Mike?

Just what does the NF mean by "may lift the ball for lateral rotation". I can see there seems to be a big difference in interpretation on what seems to be a pretty basic statement.
I'll tell you mine, which I think is every other wingmans view that I've worked with. If Mr. snapper lifts the ball more than an inch or two to rotate the ball (about the long axis), well OK. But if he brings it up any further like to his knees, he just cost his team a dead ball snap infraction.

I have a lot of confidence in the Football rules differeces Manual. But I do not see (I just checked) any rule example showing there is a difference between the two codes despite the fact that there seems to be a wording difference already been pointed out.

JRutledge · #20 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 23, 2004, 05:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Theisey
Exactly how did you phrase the response to the coach Mike?

Just what does the NF mean by "may lift the ball for lateral rotation". I can see there seems to be a big difference in interpretation on what seems to be a pretty basic statement.
I'll tell you mine, which I think is every other wingmans view that I've worked with. If Mr. snapper lifts the ball more than an inch or two to rotate the ball (about the long axis), well OK. But if he brings it up any further like to his knees, he just cost his team a dead ball snap infraction.

That is the reason I asked the question.

The snapper in my situation brought the ball up over his knee and near his chest, while leaning forward. I do not see how he is going to put the ball right back into the same spot? I think that is a huge difference than turning the ball about inch off the ground in order to get the laces in the right spot. I consider the two actions quite different. I just cannot see how in my original example that is not a foul.

Peace

JugglingReferee · #21 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 23, 2004, 10:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
This happen in scrimmage I worked yesterday.

We were working the freshman and sophomore teams. The freshman snapper right before his lineman got to the line completely picked up the ball and was adjusting it while completely off the ground. Since it was a scrimmage I just told the snapper that you "might not want to do that." I had a fellow officials disagree with me and he had a point. Rule 7-1-3d says that a snapper shall not "Following adjustments, lift or move the ball other than in a legal snap." His point of view was that the snapper could adjust the ball by completely lifting the ball off the ground. I say that he cannot, but it is not completely clear in the casebook what the conclusion is. I have always considered this illegal and have not run into anyone until yesterday that thought it was. He referenced the rules and made a good point. But I would also think that if the snapper moved the ball, that would be a foul.

Does anyone have a clearer ruling or a rule of thumb that works for them? Or is it just left to each crew to come up with their definition of what the rule means?

The rules at play are also 7-1-2 as well.

Peace

The Canadian Ruling, under 4.2.1, is that the C can "rotate or place the hand beneath the ball, but shall not intentionally move the ball as if to snap it, so as to draw the opponents offside." Penalty: 5 yards from PLS.

If I had a snapper that moved the ball, perhaps by picking it up, I think I would ask him to just get the ball ready by rotating it. if it came off the ground just a slight amount (like an inch), that's okay.

Jim S · #22 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 23, 2004, 10:29pm

Sorry guys, I have to study for a licensing test tomorrow so I don't have time to find when the rule changed in the old books this time.
But, the old Fed rule did prevent the snapper from lifting the ball to adjust it. A smart defensive player would then reach across and tap the snapper. ( A dumb one would blow him up getting a 15 yarder).
The rule was changed somewhere around 15 years ago to alow the snapper to pick the ball off the ground to do his adjustment. You'll notice that most snapper now make their adjustments before the line becomes set. Several good reasons for this.
We, as umpires, used to be religious about setting the ball down with the laces just so. The 'new' rule eliminated the real need to do that. Defenders should be taught that the adjustment is not a live ball.
As far as snappers moving the LOS with their adjustment, it happens all the time. If it makes a difference, such as pushing the ball over the goalline, or past the LOG, either I as an umpire, if I can tell, or the sideguys should jump in with the old preventative, "Get a dry ball" (or someother such ploy to hold up the play and admonish the snapper.

mikesears · #23 (**permalink**) Tue Aug 24, 2004, 01:03am

Quote:

Originally posted by Theisey
Exactly how did you phrase the response to the coach Mike?

Just what does the NF mean by "may lift the ball for lateral rotation". I can see there seems to be a big difference in interpretation on what seems to be a pretty basic statement.
I'll tell you mine, which I think is every other wingmans view that I've worked with. If Mr. snapper lifts the ball more than an inch or two to rotate the ball (about the long axis), well OK. But if he brings it up any further like to his knees, he just cost his team a dead ball snap infraction.

I have a lot of confidence in the Football rules differeces Manual. But I do not see (I just checked) any rule example showing there is a difference between the two codes despite the fact that there seems to be a wording difference already been pointed out.

I pretty much said it like you did in this post.

Bob M. · #24 (**permalink**) Tue Aug 24, 2004, 12:37pm

I'm a little late getting into this discussion, but I believe that the intention of the Federation rule is to allow the snapper to slightly lift the ball for "lateral rotation," but not allow him to lift it any more than that. As Jim S. pointed out, the rules regarding the snapper did change back in the mid to late 70s (man, you're old, Jim!).