Overrule?

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Just my thoughts...in this mix-up--which could have been prevented by proper crew techniques--one official (H) apparently saw the ball cross the goal. Sounds like the other wing (L) didn't see it. That doesn't mean it didn't happen; just means he didn't see it. I would give the benefit of the doubt to the TD call unless the L says that he saw the runner down prior to the ball crossing the goal. I'm pretty much going along with Roamin Umpire's thoughts here.

Hey R-U...parallax ?!?! Stephen Hawking would be proud of you!!

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Well, I do teach physics for a living...

[WindyCityBlue]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PS2Man

You should never mirror a fellow official if you do not see the play. The first official might be wrong. You do not want be wrong with him.

Truer words were never spoken.



How can you know that?

quote:

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Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I cannot argue Football mechanics, but I can relate to poor judgement and the necessity to right a wrong. Maybe some day, you will see my point, but I will concede that some officials do not share my passion. It may seem hollow, but if I have offended you, I apologize. My intention was to argue the points on merit and this discussion became a pissing contest.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you do not know football mechanics at all how can you talk about poor judgement and how it relates to football? Don't you have to understand mechanics before you understand good or bad calls and how to correct them?



I don't need to pick up a pile of sh*t and take a bite to know it will taste bad. I don't need to be a police officer to know that what they did to Rodney King was an exhibotion in poor judgement. I do not need to be a football official to know that a guy signalled completion on a ball that is on the ground. Apparently you don't understand the meaning of poor judgement, since you just opend a closed wound.

[PS2Man]

WCB,

I am completely lost by your post.

Can you please learn how to keep a post in quotes? It is not that damn difficult. It would be easier to follow and understand what you are commenting on. I only commented on mirroring an official. My comments were shorter than this current post.

It seems like you are just trying to create a situation to act like a 5 year old once again.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by PS2Man
WCB,

It seems like you are just trying to create a situation to act like a 5 year old once again.

I think he does not want to let it die.

Peace

[SeanWest]

Thanks to the moderator for locking the other thread.

PLEASE lock and delete both that and this one. The ego trips have gone on long enough.

Sincerely,

A Frustrated Board Member.

[JRutledge]

I am the person that locked the last thread.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

You locked the last thread???
Don't you mean, the Moderator locked the last thread after you made racial overtures again?

Another Jeff Rutledge lie...since when do you have the authority to close a thread here?


PS2Man,

I'll go slow...try to keep up. You said, "If you do not know football mechanics at all how can you talk about poor judgement and how it relates to football? Don't you have to understand mechanics before you understand good or bad calls and how to correct them?"

To which I replied...

"I don't need to pick up a pile of sh*t and take a bite to know it will taste bad. I don't need to be a police officer to know that what they did to Rodney King was an exhibition in poor judgement. I do not need to be a football official to know that a guy signalled completion on a ball that is on the ground. Apparently you don't understand the meaning of poor judgement, since you just opend a closed wound."

I apologized for offending you and then...who acted like the 5 year old? Yes, that would be the person standing in front of your mirror. Take a close look before you start throwing stones again. I thought this was behind us, but I guess I underestimated your ability to handle an apology.

You now claim that one cannot recognize poor judgement without being associated with it in some way. I can't believe that you taught your children that.

[Patton]

WCB, PS2 & Rut,

No offensive to any of you personally, but if you 3 want to continue this, why don't you take it to an AOL chat room or something, because this no long has anything to do with football. Two of you being senior members should know this. I use to be able to read every post a get some good info out of them. That no longer seems to be the case. Please take this somewhere else and lets talk football.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Patton
WCB, PS2 & Rut,

No offensive to any of you personally, but if you 3 want to continue this, why don't you take it to an AOL chat room or something, because this no long has anything to do with football. Two of you being senior members should know this. I use to be able to read every post a get some good info out of them. That no longer seems to be the case. Please take this somewhere else and lets talk football.

I have not continued anything. I closed the last post because it was clear the conversation was going no where. Mick informed me that I could close my own post, which I had forgot was an option, I closed it immediately.

If you do not like the posts, you can always not read them. This is an open forum that has a lot of points of view and opinions. I do not care to care on a conversation that is appropriate for this forum to another place.

Do not tell me what I should do. Do not tell me where I should have a conversation. I am not having a conversation on another forum when I frequently come here and ask many questions. If you noticed I have asked other questions related to football and other sports and got professional responses. It is also the right of anyone to dispute that. I like people to show their true colors and that is happening here with certain people. You do not have to pay attention or read any posts that you see are unfit for your liking. But I am not going to a chat room or any other discussion board to have officiating conversations. If you do not like it, so be it. You cannot make everyone happy.


Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
You locked the last thread???
Don't you mean, the Moderator locked the last thread after you made racial overtures again?

Another Jeff Rutledge lie...since when do you have the authority to close a thread here?

Here is an email from Mick the moderator yesterday.

Rut,
I closed it.
I think you could have done that (because you started the thread) if you would have gone to administrative options at the bottom and just clicked on open/close thread
When it asks for identification, I think your name would've been there and you could have just clicked enter.
If you wanna try it, I'll re-open it and you can close it.
mick

Mick then email me today.

Looks like you made it happen.


mick

This was all after I had requested mick close the thread. I had the last word after 12:00am when I got home and closed the thread. Anyone can delete or close the thread that they start. I started the thread, and after mick reminded me, I closed it.



Peace

[Blue37]

Originally posted by JRutledge

First of all, you cannot overrule anyone if no decision has been made. Both officials made a signal, but you cannot have both. Someone was not supposed to signal at all. So this is not an "overrule" when someone had a brain fart and did something they were not suppose to.

I have had this happen as a Referee. You use common sense than talk to both officials. Usually you stick with the official's call that had the ball come to their side. If someone is blocked off you might give the call to the other side. The bottom line is that there is no good that can come out of conflicting signals. If anything, try to prevent it. The wings should pinch if they are not sure, and then rule a TD after the play is dead if necessary. The wings should also look at each other if there is any question as to if he got across.

Peace

The play was a QB sneak right up the gut. Does the call belong to the L or the LJ? In my scenario, both were certain of what they saw. Logic tell us that one of them saw it incorrectly, but neither were willing to back down and change their own call.

Maybe my confusion is that I do not understand the definition of "decision" and "overrule". Until your post, I thought the L made a decision when he signaled TD, and I thought the LJ made a decision when he signaled no TD. If, as you assert, the decision is not made until the call is final, then there is never an overrule. If a flag is thrown for a clip, but the Referee, with no discussion, tells the official to put his flag back in his pocket and the game goes on without a penalty being assessed, that is not an "overrule" as it occurred before the final "decision" was made. If we had all been working from these definitions, the discussion whould have ended long ago.

[PS2Man]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

"I don't need to pick up a pile of sh*t and take a bite to know it will taste bad. I don't need to be a police officer to know that what they did to Rodney King was an exhibition in poor judgement. I do not need to be a football official to know that a guy signalled completion on a ball that is on the ground. Apparently you don't understand the meaning of poor judgement, since you just opend a closed wound."

You talked about being a Police officer. In order to become a Police officer you have to go thru a great deal of training and testing in order to get into that profession. I do not know just walk off the street and become a police officer overnight. I have some very close friends that are officers and they had to go thru months of training and testing before they could even get a job. I think if you decided become a football officials you at least know how to officiate a sport. The problem is that you would still go thru a few years of learning the game and the nuances to become a good official in the sport of football. I had to retrain myself when I added another sport as well. What I would see on TV would not apply to the rules and mechanics I that are in the officiating manuals and NCAA and NF Rules.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Blue37


The play was a QB sneak right up the gut. Does the call belong to the L or the LJ? In my scenario, both were certain of what they saw. Logic tell us that one of them saw it incorrectly, but neither were willing to back down and change their own call.

The call belongs to both of them. Usually only one official is going to get a good look at the play. They should pinch, and then make a decision based on where they see the ball or where they can tell the play was stopped at. There is not hurry to make a call here.

Originally posted by Blue37
Maybe my confusion is that I do not understand the definition of "decision" and "overrule".

A decision is what you are going to say happen on the play. To overrule someone is to see something that your partner did and then tell him he was wrong and then change the call. I know we have beat that dead horse, but you cannot do that. If you do you that you might find that official not working very long. You are a team. The officials should always coordinate signals or calls in those specific situations. I am a Referee on my crew. When my partners call a foul, all they do is report to me. I cannot tell them they are wrong or that they should not have thrown the flag. I can help them make a final decision by asking appropriate questions. I do need to know what, who and when, but it is up to them to tell me. I cannot do that for them. That is really the case on plays that I am covering my own responsibility.

Originally posted by Blue37
Until your post, I thought the L made a decision when he signaled TD, and I thought the LJ made a decision when he signaled no TD.

They both did, but you cannot have a TD and the ball down short of the goal line. You have to come to a final decision and decide what actually took place.

Originally posted by Blue37
If, as you assert, the decision is not made until the call is final, then there is never an overrule.

That is what I am saying.

Originally posted by Blue37
If a flag is thrown for a clip, but the Referee, with no discussion, tells the official to put his flag back in his pocket and the game goes on without a penalty being assessed, that is not an "overrule" as it occurred before the final "decision" was made.

I would hope that the Referee is saying to the officials why that flag should be picked up. Because I can assume that the Referee and the calling official has a different angle and it is very possible that they both did not see the play the same way. The Referee does not have the right to just tell the calling official to pick up that flag. The Referee's role is to signal all fouls and explain actions for the crew when they take place. If we are talking about a game at the D1 level for example, the Referee and the calling official would get a downgrade if they pick up the flag and they were wrong. So the Referee better be sure he has some information that can change the call and the calling official better be sure he is right.

To summarize your play. In your example the H and HL cannot have it both ways. We have to make a decision one way or another. It is very likely someone will get criticized for making a call that they did not see. So what you have to do is have whoever's side the ball was on or decide who had a better look at the play. But that is why you hear the term, “SEE LEATHER" so often. If you do not see the ball, you should never blow your whistle on tackles and TD plays. That is a perfect recipe for an inadvertent whistle or disaster.

Originally posted by Blue37
If we had all been working from these definitions, the discussion whould have ended long ago.

I do not think so. You have people that will feel it is their God given right to change calls regardless of the procedure they use. I just know that if you want to get the call right that is a noble ideal, but you better be 120% sure that you are changing a call that is right. Bad judgment does not just reside with the initial play. You can use bad judgment in changing the call as well.

Peace

[PS2Man]

Originally posted by Patton
WCB, PS2 & Rut,

No offensive to any of you personally, but if you 3 want to continue this, why don't you take it to an AOL chat room or something, because this no long has anything to do with football. Two of you being senior members should know this. I use to be able to read every post a get some good info out of them. That no longer seems to be the case. Please take this somewhere else and lets talk football.

This entire time I have stuck to football. I do not see why that is a problem. I do feel like there should be a certain professional conduct by fellow officials and I have expressed that a little bit. This discussion for me has been all about football. It will continue to be about football.