Enforcement on ill sub that becomes ill part

[ljudge]

I was brushing up on rule 9 this morning, specifically illegal participation. If B has 10 men on the field and a sub runs on to the field as the ball is about to become live and doesn't get onside I know it's illegal substitution simultaneous w/ the snap. If he participates or influences in the play it becomes(?) IP. Does the illegal sub BECOME illegal participation, or is it technically a multiple foul situation? I'm assuming it's a multiple foul and if the IP is enforced the enforcement spot depends on whether it was during loose ball play, running, play, etc. vs. simply a previous spot enforcement as you would have if you only had an illegal sub.

In other words I'm thinking the IP doesn't "count" as simultaneous with the snap. Is my logic correct?

[JasonTX]

Under NCAA the only thing I see is the offsides foul. Illegal participation requires 12 or more players from the same team participating. As far as illegal substitution you have to use judgement on whether he made it on the field before the snap. If it's that close I would say he made it before. If not, then the most you have under NCAA is Illegal Sub and offsides. I am sure NFHS is totally different.

[Bob Floyd]

Originally posted by ljudge
I was brushing up on rule 9 this morning, specifically illegal participation. If B has 10 men on the field and a sub runs on to the field as the ball is about to become live and doesn't get onside I know it's illegal substitution simultaneous w/ the snap. If he participates or influences in the play it becomes(?) IP. Does the illegal sub BECOME illegal participation, or is it technically a multiple foul situation? I'm assuming it's a multiple foul and if the IP is enforced the enforcement spot depends on whether it was during loose ball play, running, play, etc. vs. simply a previous spot enforcement as you would have if you only had an illegal sub.

In other words I'm thinking the IP doesn't "count" as simultaneous with the snap. Is my logic correct?

In the play you described you merely have illegal substitution. The penalty, if accepted, is five yards from the previous spot. See casebook play 3.7.6.

[kentref]

Originally posted by ljudge
I was brushing up on rule 9 this morning, specifically illegal participation. If B has 10 men on the field and a sub runs on to the field as the ball is about to become live and doesn't get onside I know it's illegal substitution simultaneous w/ the snap. If he participates or influences in the play it becomes(?) IP. Does the illegal sub BECOME illegal participation, or is it technically a multiple foul situation? I'm assuming it's a multiple foul and if the IP is enforced the enforcement spot depends on whether it was during loose ball play, running, play, etc. vs. simply a previous spot enforcement as you would have if you only had an illegal sub.

In other words I'm thinking the IP doesn't "count" as simultaneous with the snap. Is my logic correct?

I'm not finding an illegal participation foul on the sub that runs on to the field late. If there were already 11 on the field and the sub runs on late, then you have a potential illegal participation. Are you assuming that the sub for B was "inbounds" at the snap?

[ljudge]

No, a sub who runs in and doesn't get onside prior to the snap you have a live ball illegal substitution foul that's enforced from the previous spot because it's simultaneous with the snap. If that same player happens to influence the play or otherwise "participate" he's now guilty of illegal participation. Assuming I'm correct then my initial questions remain.

[Jim S]

ljudge is correct. This is illegal participation. Once the ball is snapped if the player continues on and then participates he has committed IP.
yu do have a mulitple foul. Since the one is 5 from the previous and the other is enforced under all-but-one it's fairly obvious which is going to be enforced on a normally.
I believe this is listed in the casebook under IP in rule 9.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I believe that the only equitable way to rule in this play is, as Jim S. says, a multiple foul against Team B. I’ve included a play below to indicate why. However, I think there is room in the Federation rules to have a different interpretation based upon where that B team member is when he influences the play. Was he on his side of the neutral zone at that time, or was he still on his opponent’s side of the NZ? Some thoughts:
1. The B team member who enters the field late is a substitute since he’s entering to fill a player vacancy (2-30-15). This is a foul for illegal substitution simultaneous with the snap (3-7-6). Probably not a lot of argument there.
2. Normally when an entering substitute participates in a play, he becomes a player by definition (2-30-15). But he remains a substitute and cannot become a player until he makes it to his side of the neutral zone (2-30-15 – last sentence) So, if he were to participate in the play while still on his opponent’s side of the NZ, he’s technically a substitute participating in a play—an illegal participation foul according to 9-6-3. However, if he makes it to his side of the NZ and only then participates in the play, he becomes a player by definition 2-30-15 and is no longer governed by 9-6-3. In such a case, none of the restrictions in 9-6 are violated and there is certainly room to say that his participation at this point is legal.

But let’s go back to the original question and assume his participation occurs before he makes it to his own side of the neutral zone. Consider this play:

PLAY: A, 3-5 from B’s 30. B20 realizes that his team only has 10 players. He runs onto the field at the 50 and the ball is snapped. QB A10 drops deep to throw. B20 runs toward him and tackles him at B’s 47. RULING: I think you must call this a multiple foul—IS and IP. The IP would be enforced from the end of the run (coincidentally also the spot of the foul). The result would be A’s ball 3-7 from B’s 32. Not a great deal for A especially since declining the penalty would make it 4th and 22! But…the IS foul would be enforced from the previous spot, making it A, 1-10 from B’s 25. You simply can’t allow the IS to “become” IP. A must be given the benefit of accepting the IS penalty. Otherwise, B gains a huge advantage by fouling. Comments??

By the way, one of the Points of Emphasis in the 2004 rules is “Substitutions and Participation.”

[Note: I had to edit this since I had a "brain cramp" when coming up with the results of the IP emforcement.]

[Edited by Bob M. on Jun 16th, 2004 at 02:06 PM]

[ljudge]

Thank you Bob and others for helping me clear this up. I believe it should be a multiple foul situation. If this were a test question I'd say A has the choice of accepting the IP foul which would make it 3rd and 7 from 32 (I hope my math is correct here). In reality I wouldn't give A that option since the IS foul is the better option. I think by giving the captain the choice of accept IS, accept IP, or decline both would be confusing.

Accept IS - 1st down as Bob notes.
Accept IP - replay 3rd down - 3rd and 7
Decline both - results of play as Bob notes.

[Jim S]

Bob, I checked the Casebook where I thought it mentioned this, and it is indeed there.
However there is no specification on where he participates, only that he does.
Last years book, p.69 #5 comment.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Jim S
Bob, I checked the Casebook where I thought it mentioned this, and it is indeed there.
However there is no specification on where he participates, only that he does.
Last years book, p.69 #5 comment.

REPLY: Yeah Jim...I saw that in this year's case book, and I agree with the principle. I was just commenting that the way the rule book is written, one could infer that the participation is legal if the B team member makes it to his side of the neutral zone before participating. Makes it all the more important to read the case book as the extension to the rule book. I like the NCAA method--they include their approved rulings (ARs) at the end of their rule book.

[Jim S]

Bob, you know that the NFHS rulebook is so clearly written that there is no need for ARs..........................