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Old Sun Sep 22, 2019, 10:16am
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Free Kick Out of Bounds

Is a free kick kicked out of bounds untouched by R (6-1-9) a live ball foul or a dead ball foul?
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Old Sun Sep 22, 2019, 10:40am
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Lbf.
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Old Sun Sep 22, 2019, 01:54pm
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You have to have a live ball to have this even take place. So if it is coupled with another foul during the kick, then you could choose to offset them if the receiving team committed a foul as well. Don't overcomplicate this.

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Old Sun Sep 22, 2019, 11:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Middleman View Post
Is a free kick kicked out of bounds untouched by R (6-1-9) a live ball foul or a dead ball foul?
NFHS; 2-35 advises, "RFP signifies that the ball may be put in play by a snap or free kick......, so once the ball is snapped or free kicked (after an RFP) the ball is "live"
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Old Sun Sep 22, 2019, 11:48pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
You have to have a live ball to have this even take place. So if it is coupled with another foul during the kick, then you could choose to offset them if the receiving team committed a foul as well. Don't overcomplicate this.
Last year we got a new rule allowing R the option of having fouls by K enforced from the succeeding spot (10-4-2 Exception). Some of our officials think this means that R can select an option for the kick out of bounds, then ADD ON the penalty for the live ball foul committed by K during the kick. If kicking the ball out of bounds is a live ball foul, then R will have to choose enforcement of one or the other foul, but not both.
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Old Mon Sep 23, 2019, 12:01am
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
NFHS; 2-35 advises, "RFP signifies that the ball may be put in play by a snap or free kick......, so once the ball is snapped or free kicked (after an RFP) the ball is "live"
No question that the ball is live and a down is in progress while the kick is still a kick. That's not what I asked.

The foul occurs when the ball becomes dead - the instant it becomes dead. Not before, not after. A live ball foul occurs during a down, a dead ball foul occurs after the down has ended. So, therein lies my question.
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Old Mon Sep 23, 2019, 07:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Middleman View Post
Last year we got a new rule allowing R the option of having fouls by K enforced from the succeeding spot (10-4-2 Exception). Some of our officials think this means that R can select an option for the kick out of bounds, then ADD ON the penalty for the live ball foul committed by K during the kick. If kicking the ball out of bounds is a live ball foul, then R will have to choose enforcement of one or the other foul, but not both.
R can choose:
1) 5 yd penalty from the previous spot and rekick, or
2) Take the ball at the R-35, or
3) Take the ball at the OOB spot PLUS a 5 yd penalty.

Im guessing some officials are incorrectly allowing R to take option 2 plus 5 yards?
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Old Mon Sep 23, 2019, 09:15am
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Originally Posted by Middleman View Post
No question that the ball is live and a down is in progress while the kick is still a kick. That's not what I asked.

The foul occurs when the ball becomes dead - the instant it becomes dead. Not before, not after. A live ball foul occurs during a down, a dead ball foul occurs after the down has ended. So, therein lies my question.
Dead is dead, but before you can be dead, you have to have been alive. The music never ends for those angels dancing on pinheads, but for those learning when to stop listening life is a lot simpler.
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Old Mon Sep 23, 2019, 10:08am
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If it was dead ball foul, there would only be one penalty option.

A similar situation exists in reverse if the kicking team violates the back 5 yd restraining lin, pop up kicks, or overloads. It is not a foul until the ball is kicked but it results in killing the play and a DBF

The 5 yard penalty on FKOOB can be tacked on in the case where R elects to take the spot where the ball went out.
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Old Mon Sep 23, 2019, 10:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Middleman View Post
No question that the ball is live and a down is in progress while the kick is still a kick. That's not what I asked.

The foul occurs when the ball becomes dead - the instant it becomes dead. Not before, not after. A live ball foul occurs during a down, a dead ball foul occurs after the down has ended. So, therein lies my question.
Interesting. We could probably think of other cases where the same act is both a foul and makes the ball dead. How about illegal participation by someone who's standing out of bounds and reaches in-bounds to touch the ball? Or a runner who removes his helmet?

I think some snap infractions are saved from being in that category by the ball's being ruled retroactively never to have become live.
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Old Mon Sep 23, 2019, 12:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT1 View Post
R can choose:
1) 5 yd penalty from the previous spot and rekick, or
2) Take the ball at the R-35, or
3) Take the ball at the OOB spot PLUS a 5 yd penalty.

Im guessing some officials are incorrectly allowing R to take option 2 plus 5 yards?
Well, that too. But what I was driving at was a live ball foul committed by K during the kick, such as Holding or Personal Foul, added on to the choice for the kick out of bounds.

Play: During a free kick, K65 blindsides R28 at the R-25 yard line. The kick rolls out of bounds untouched at the R-12 yard line. What choices does R have?
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Old Mon Sep 23, 2019, 03:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Middleman View Post
Well, that too. But what I was driving at was a live ball foul committed by K during the kick, such as Holding or Personal Foul, added on to the choice for the kick out of bounds.

Play: During a free kick, K65 blindsides R28 at the R-25 yard line. The kick rolls out of bounds untouched at the R-12 yard line. What choices does R have?
NFHS: 10-2-1: "t is a double foul if both teams commit fouls, other than nonplayer or USC, during the same live ball period. See a-c for details.... In a, b & c the penalties cancel and the down is replayed."

NFHS: 9-4 (Illegal personal Contact)-n: Execute a blindside block outside the FBZ with forceful contact unless initiated with open hands.
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Old Mon Sep 23, 2019, 06:26pm
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Quote:
what I was driving at was a live ball foul committed by K during the kick, such as Holding or Personal Foul, added on to the choice for the kick out of bounds.
Multiple foul- R must choose which one they want.


ajmc- you need to re-read his post. Both fouls posited were by K
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Old Mon Sep 23, 2019, 06:53pm
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Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
Multiple foul- R must choose which one they want.


ajmc- you need to re-read his post. Both fouls posited were by K
Oops! (Nevermind)
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Old Tue Sep 24, 2019, 12:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Middleman View Post
Well, that too. But what I was driving at was a live ball foul committed by K during the kick, such as Holding or Personal Foul, added on to the choice for the kick out of bounds.

Play: During a free kick, K65 blindsides R28 at the R-25 yard line. The kick rolls out of bounds untouched at the R-12 yard line. What choices does R have?
R can decline the FKOOB and take the ball at the spot where it went OOB (12 yd line) and then accept the PF from there.
Or R can decline the FKOOB and have the free kick repeated with a 15 yd penalty, backing K to the K25.
If A accepts the FKOOB, then they will have to decline the PF.
Can't get em both.
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