Fair Catch signal question.

[airraider]

Case -

K team punts ball high in air.

Two return players are back deep.

R1 waves his arms side to side (penalty decline signal) telling teammates to get away from the kick.

R2 catches the ball of the bounce and returns it.

Is this illegal? What if R1 would have fielded it instead of R2?

Thanks in advance!

[CT1]

Once any member of the receiving team gives a FC signal (valid or invalid), the ball becomes dead upon possession, and cannot be advanced.

[JRutledge]

There has been nothing at the NF level at least that suggests this is an invalid signal at all. Maybe your state has made some interpretation on the issue, which is allowed by them, but not from the NF level. This is a legal play and can advance the ball if someone picks up to return the punt on a scrimmage kick.

This is after all dead in college upon the recovery of the punt by R.

Different levels have different interpretations.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by CT1

Once any member of the receiving team gives a FC signal (valid or invalid), the ball becomes dead upon possession, and cannot be advanced.

Additionally, in FED, it's a 5-yard penalty to give an invalid (or illegal) signal.

And remember that R does not receive protection-it's not a fair catch.

We've been told here that it's the "get away" signal is invalid.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Additionally, in FED, it's a 5-yard penalty to give an invalid (or illegal) signal.

And remember that R does not receive protection-it's not a fair catch.

We've been told here that it's the "get away" signal is invalid.

Do they say how high the hands have to be for that? Above the shoulders? Above the waist?

Just trying to figure out what kind of gesture they can make that won't be taken as a fair catch signal.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Do they say how high the hands have to be for that? Above the shoulders? Above the waist?

Just trying to figure out what kind of gesture they can make that won't be taken as a fair catch signal.

Once again (or maybe "Still") it's a matter of "common sense" on the part of the covering official, to DETERMINE if whatever "signal" was given was innocuous and immaterial, or misleading (and therefore Invalid).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Once again (or maybe "Still") it's a matter of "common sense" on the part of the covering official, to DETERMINE if whatever "signal" was given was innocuous and immaterial, or misleading (and therefore Invalid).

Yes, common sense should be used. But the problem is that the NCAA said that any signal, for the most part, would kill the play regardless of how the waive took place. And even in that situation the ruling from the NCAA is to just simply kill the play and not give a penalty. The NF has done no such thing, but states might have. So simply waving at shoulder length as if to say, "Getaway" was never illegal or considered an invalid signal. That is why it matters what the state you work in says or suggests and then move forward with that ruling. As usually things that start at other levels do not always come down to the other levels and people conflate the two issues.

Peace

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes, common sense should be used. But the problem is that the NCAA said that any signal, for the most part, would kill the play regardless of how the waive took place. And even in that situation the ruling from the NCAA is to just simply kill the play and not give a penalty. The NF has done no such thing, but states might have. So simply waving at shoulder length as if to say, "Getaway" was never illegal or considered an invalid signal. That is why it matters what the state you work in says or suggests and then move forward with that ruling. As usually things that start at other levels do not always come down to the other levels and people conflate the two issues.

Peace

"Common Sense" suggests you actually know where you are (what State, operating under which Rules Code and what accepted practices are) that will help guide you to the appropriate conclusions.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ajmc

"Common Sense" suggests you actually know where you are (what State, operating under which Rules Code and what accepted practices are) that will help guide you to the appropriate conclusions.

I would suggest that is is not very "common" to know what is allowed or this would not keep coming up. Again people have used the NCAA situation to apply to the NF situation where it might not apply.

Peace

[MTUMP]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes, common sense should be used. But the problem is that the NCAA said that any signal, for the most part, would kill the play regardless of how the waive took place. And even in that situation the ruling from the NCAA is to just simply kill the play and not give a penalty. The NF has done no such thing, but states might have. So simply waving at shoulder length as if to say, "Getaway" was never illegal or considered an invalid signal. That is why it matters what the state you work in says or suggests and then move forward with that ruling. As usually things that start at other levels do not always come down to the other levels and people conflate the two issues.

Peace

The Case Book 6.5.7 SITUATION B seems to cover this type of action as invalid signal (case c):.....

During a scrimmage kick, R1 signals for a fair catch by: (a) extending and holding one arm above his head; or (b) partially extending and waving one hand in front of his face; or (c) fully extending and laterally waving both hands above his head or in front of the body without extending one hand at arm’s length above his head; or (d) extending and laterally waving one arm at full length above his head.

RULING: The signals in (a), (b) and (c) are invalid. In (d), the signal is valid. Giving an invalid signal is a foul for which the penalty is enforced under the post-scrimmage kick provision.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MTUMP

The Case Book 6.5.7 SITUATION B seems to cover this type of action as invalid signal (case c):.....

During a scrimmage kick, R1 signals for a fair catch by: (a) extending and holding one arm above his head; or (b) partially extending and waving one hand in front of his face; or (c) fully extending and laterally waving both hands above his head or in front of the body without extending one hand at arm’s length above his head; or (d) extending and laterally waving one arm at full length above his head.

RULING: The signals in (a), (b) and (c) are invalid. In (d), the signal is valid. Giving an invalid signal is a foul for which the penalty is enforced under the post-scrimmage kick provision.

Plays a, b, and c are basically above the head or at the head. Not exactly what we are talking about here. The play in question is at shoulder or below shoulder length. I am not sure that is what we are talking about if the "waving" is in front of your face. And I have never seen anyone suggest give a penalty for the "get away" signal that is often used in these situations. Never has been the case in my over 20 years of officiating.

Peace

[SC Official]

Play (c) most certainly is not only talking about signals at or above the head.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Do they say how high the hands have to be for that? Above the shoulders? Above the waist?

Just trying to figure out what kind of gesture they can make that won't be taken as a fair catch signal.

Any waving kills the ball.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Any waving kills the ball.

This play is suggesting this is a penalty. It is not just suggesting it just kills the play.

I'm sorry, but I have never heard that suggested.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This play is suggesting this is a penalty. It is not just suggesting it just kills the play.

I'm sorry, but I have never heard that suggested.

Peace

I was responding to his inquiry about what we have been told in my area.