LOD on 4th down

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The IFP is considered a running play, and should the enforcement result in A being granted a 1st down, the game clock would start on the RFP

But what about 3-4-2 and 3-4-3(e)? Incomplete forward pass (doesn't matter whether it's a legal one), stopping the clock, and then 3-4-2 referring to clock stoppages under 3-4-3? Seems to me the clock has to stay stopped barring invocation of 3-4-6. Pretty good tactical foul by team A if that's not invoked; the extra time they'll get to pick a play is probably worth the distance they'll give up, when they have to go for the touchdown in just 5 secs. Of course the player could instead have thrown a legal backwards pass out of bounds & probably reduced that distance.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But what about 3-4-2 and 3-4-3(e)? Incomplete forward pass (doesn't matter whether it's a legal one), stopping the clock, and then 3-4-2 referring to clock stoppages under 3-4-3? Seems to me the clock has to stay stopped barring invocation of 3-4-6. Pretty good tactical foul by team A if that's not invoked; the extra time they'll get to pick a play is probably worth the distance they'll give up, when they have to go for the touchdown in just 5 secs. Of course the player could instead have thrown a legal backwards pass out of bounds & probably reduced that distance.

Where are you going with this? IFP is considered a foul during a running play, and enforcement is from the end of the run (spot of the pass). Enforcement is from the Basic Spot, which provides the clock starting on the RFP (when the result is a continuous 1st down)

As for whether it's a 1st down, or not, depends ENTIRELY on whether the subsequent spot places the ball beyond, or behind, the LTG. That depends on how that precise spot was determined. (any and all efforts (mechanics) to insure precision in making that determination are appropriate and appreciated).

[BIG UMP]

10-3-1, is the reference for the clock status.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by BIG UMP

10-3-1, is the reference for the clock status.

I don't see any mention in Fed 10-3-1 of anything about timing. Was there a recent inclusion of such a provision?

[ajmc]

IFP is considered a running play (as defined by 10-3-1, as opposed to a loose-ball play). That the play ended when the IFP hit the ground doesn't change that designation.

The basic spot for a running play is the "End of the Run (with the exception of an ABO situation) NFHS 3-4-3 determines when the clock starts with a snap, which does not include when a team gains a (continuous) first down (which is what this question is ALL ABOUT).

As suggested, when the succeeding spot left "A" behind the LTG, the "loss of down' provision of IFP would end the series for "A", starting a new series for "B" for which (according to 3-4-3) begins with a snap. Since , in this example, "A" earned a "continuous" new series, the clock starts on the RFP.

NFHS: 3-4-6 is simply not a relevant factor, in this scenario.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

NFHS 3-4-3 determines when the clock starts with a snap, which does not include when a team gains a (continuous) first down (which is what this question is ALL ABOUT).

No, but it does include when there's an incomplete pass. The first down's occurrence doesn't negate the incomplete pass's occurrence. In fact, 3-4-2 says the provisions of 3-4-3 supersede it: "for any reason other than specified in rule 3-4-3". So the only way I see the clock starting on the RFP if team A retains the ball is 3-4-6.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I don't see any mention in Fed 10-3-1 of anything about timing. Was there a recent inclusion of such a provision?

Wasn't that your original question? (I'm interested in the clock status. If team A winds up with first down, and a stopped clock (with a lot of time taken for administration before the RFP, even w/o the possibly tricky measurement) for the incompletion, it seems they've gained a good deal for their illegal forward pass. Consider that the passer was well beyond the neutral zone when he let fly; seems like a deliberate attempt to conserve time. Would you invoke 3-4-6 and start the clock on the RFP? Seems the least you could do in the situation).

Either "A" made the 1st down, clock starts on the ready, or they didn't and "B" then starts a new series, clock starts on the snap.

[Welpe]

We know that from 3-4-3e that an incomplete illegal forward pass would result in the clock being started at the snap.

In this case though I think an argument can be made for starting the clock on the ready via 3-4-6 considering the situation.

[whitehat]

Case book 3.4.6 Situation A allows for an incomplete illegal forward pass to be started on the RFP.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Wasn't that your original question?

Either "A" made the 1st down, clock starts on the ready,

Because of which timing provision? 3-4-6 or something else?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Either "A" made the 1st down, clock starts on the ready

That is not correct per the rule I cited earlier unless the Referee decides to invoke 3-4-6 and wind it on the ready.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Welpe

That is not correct per the rule I cited earlier unless the Referee decides to invoke 3-4-6 and wind it on the ready.

After re-reading 3-4-3-e (more carefully), I'd agree with you. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Where are you going with this? IFP is considered a foul during a running play, and enforcement is from the end of the run (spot of the pass). Enforcement is from the Basic Spot, which provides the clock starting on the RFP (when the result is a continuous 1st down)

But the action which caused the down to end (incomplete forward pass) also caused the clock to be stopped -- so this is not a case under 3-4-2 for the clock to start on the RFP, because of 3-4-2b.3. Didn't we settle it here just a short while ago that the clock status is determined by how the ball became dead on such a down, where the foul was during the down? Where is there anything in the Fed rules that would supsersede that, other than 3-4-6? The foul may have occurred during a running play, but the down still ended with an incomplete forward pass, so I don't see how the enforcement spot has anything to do with the timing provisions.