LOD on 4th down

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I'm interested in the clock status. If team A winds up with first down, and a stopped clock (with a lot of time taken for administration before the RFP, even w/o the possibly tricky measurement) for the incompletion, it seems they've gained a good deal for their illegal forward pass. Consider that the passer was well beyond the neutral zone when he let fly; seems like a deliberate attempt to conserve time. Would you invoke 3-4-6 and start the clock on the RFP? Seems the least you could do in the situation.

The IFP is considered a running play, and should the enforcement result in A being granted a 1st down, the game clock would start on the RFP

[whitehat]

Concerning a measurement: If you have the privilege of working on a very well marked field (as in an artificial surface) then of course between the 20's you try to start a 1st down on a hash or yard line, then knowing if the dead ball spot has reached that hash ten yards down field you don't measure. If you start on a half yard spot it's a little trickier. The tape on the chain helps, but at best, Umpires footsteps are an imprecise science. If the covering official is on his game he will ensure the spot of the foul (even by moving his flag) is not that close either way....:-)

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Concerning a measurement: If you have the privilege of working on a very well marked field (as in an artificial surface) then of course between the 20's you try to start a 1st down on a hash or yard line, then knowing if the dead ball spot has reached that hash ten yards down field you don't measure. If you start on a half yard spot it's a little trickier. The tape on the chain helps, but at best, Umpires footsteps are an imprecise science. If the covering official is on his game he will ensure the spot of the foul (even by moving his flag) is not that close either way....:-)

But why sweat that, when determining the spot the passer lost possession of the ball is so imprecise? Does the passer have possession as long as his passing hand is merely touching it? There's got to be a certain point in the throwing motion where the only control the player has of the ball is aiming it a little, and the player couldn't actually do anything else with it but release it; is it still a "run" at that point ("held or controlled")?

[whitehat]

Robert, I don't understand your question...what I am saying is on any spot foul there is a little wiggle room as to where the flag actually falls. What we would not want to happen is if technically its 5.0 yards exactly that still leaves the ball at or beyond the line to gain, then we don't want an umpire to step off "5 yards and 2 inches" and the ball goes over to B. or the other way around.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Robert, I don't understand your question...what I am saying is on any spot foul there is a little wiggle room as to where the flag actually falls. What we would not want to happen is if technically its 5.0 yards exactly that still leaves the ball at or beyond the line to gain, then we don't want an umpire to step off "5 yards and 2 inches" and the ball goes over to B. or the other way around.

Why blame him, when the person who indicated the spot of the foul was off by 4 inches?

Are you afraid that someone on the bench, accepting the spot of the foul as correct, has surveyor's tools and can see the U paced off 2" too much?

[whitehat]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Why blame him, when the person who indicated the spot of the foul was off by 4 inches?

Are you afraid that someone on the bench, accepting the spot of the foul as correct, has surveyor's tools and can see the U paced off 2" too much?

Robert, not blaming anyone, nor afraid...just offering some suggestions as to how we might avoid unnecessary problems arising when we engage in that imperfect and imprecise art of measuring and foul spotting. We just do the best we can and go with it.

Regarding when the clock starts: 3.4.3h and 3.4.6 should be considered. "When a team attempts to conserve time illegally, the R shall order the clock stopped or started." Case book 3.4.6 Situation A allows for an illegal forward incomplete pass to be started on the RFP.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The IFP is considered a running play, and should the enforcement result in A being granted a 1st down, the game clock would start on the RFP

But what about 3-4-2 and 3-4-3(e)? Incomplete forward pass (doesn't matter whether it's a legal one), stopping the clock, and then 3-4-2 referring to clock stoppages under 3-4-3? Seems to me the clock has to stay stopped barring invocation of 3-4-6. Pretty good tactical foul by team A if that's not invoked; the extra time they'll get to pick a play is probably worth the distance they'll give up, when they have to go for the touchdown in just 5 secs. Of course the player could instead have thrown a legal backwards pass out of bounds & probably reduced that distance.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But what about 3-4-2 and 3-4-3(e)? Incomplete forward pass (doesn't matter whether it's a legal one), stopping the clock, and then 3-4-2 referring to clock stoppages under 3-4-3? Seems to me the clock has to stay stopped barring invocation of 3-4-6. Pretty good tactical foul by team A if that's not invoked; the extra time they'll get to pick a play is probably worth the distance they'll give up, when they have to go for the touchdown in just 5 secs. Of course the player could instead have thrown a legal backwards pass out of bounds & probably reduced that distance.

Where are you going with this? IFP is considered a foul during a running play, and enforcement is from the end of the run (spot of the pass). Enforcement is from the Basic Spot, which provides the clock starting on the RFP (when the result is a continuous 1st down)

As for whether it's a 1st down, or not, depends ENTIRELY on whether the subsequent spot places the ball beyond, or behind, the LTG. That depends on how that precise spot was determined. (any and all efforts (mechanics) to insure precision in making that determination are appropriate and appreciated).

[BIG UMP]

10-3-1, is the reference for the clock status.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by BIG UMP

10-3-1, is the reference for the clock status.

I don't see any mention in Fed 10-3-1 of anything about timing. Was there a recent inclusion of such a provision?

[ajmc]

IFP is considered a running play (as defined by 10-3-1, as opposed to a loose-ball play). That the play ended when the IFP hit the ground doesn't change that designation.

The basic spot for a running play is the "End of the Run (with the exception of an ABO situation) NFHS 3-4-3 determines when the clock starts with a snap, which does not include when a team gains a (continuous) first down (which is what this question is ALL ABOUT).

As suggested, when the succeeding spot left "A" behind the LTG, the "loss of down' provision of IFP would end the series for "A", starting a new series for "B" for which (according to 3-4-3) begins with a snap. Since , in this example, "A" earned a "continuous" new series, the clock starts on the RFP.

NFHS: 3-4-6 is simply not a relevant factor, in this scenario.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

NFHS 3-4-3 determines when the clock starts with a snap, which does not include when a team gains a (continuous) first down (which is what this question is ALL ABOUT).

No, but it does include when there's an incomplete pass. The first down's occurrence doesn't negate the incomplete pass's occurrence. In fact, 3-4-2 says the provisions of 3-4-3 supersede it: "for any reason other than specified in rule 3-4-3". So the only way I see the clock starting on the RFP if team A retains the ball is 3-4-6.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I don't see any mention in Fed 10-3-1 of anything about timing. Was there a recent inclusion of such a provision?

Wasn't that your original question? (I'm interested in the clock status. If team A winds up with first down, and a stopped clock (with a lot of time taken for administration before the RFP, even w/o the possibly tricky measurement) for the incompletion, it seems they've gained a good deal for their illegal forward pass. Consider that the passer was well beyond the neutral zone when he let fly; seems like a deliberate attempt to conserve time. Would you invoke 3-4-6 and start the clock on the RFP? Seems the least you could do in the situation).

Either "A" made the 1st down, clock starts on the ready, or they didn't and "B" then starts a new series, clock starts on the snap.

[Welpe]

We know that from 3-4-3e that an incomplete illegal forward pass would result in the clock being started at the snap.

In this case though I think an argument can be made for starting the clock on the ready via 3-4-6 considering the situation.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Wasn't that your original question?

Either "A" made the 1st down, clock starts on the ready,

Because of which timing provision? 3-4-6 or something else?