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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 20, 2016, 01:36pm
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Texas vs Cal near last play

I didn't want to start this one, as I have a dog in the hunt. I'm kind of surprised no one else did.

3rd and short, clock running down (1:30ish left), Cal RB breaks through the line and rushes for the score. Drops the ball as he's crossing the goal line, but the ball came out of his hand at about the 1 1/2 foot line, falls to the ground just past the goal line and rolls about a foot when it's picked up by a UT player, approximately 3 seconds after it was dropped.

On field ruling was TD.

Replay ruling was Cal ball on the 1 yard line.

We've seen these a few times (in fact, once in week 1, and again this past Saturday in the Ohio State vs Oklahoma game, but the replay official missed this one entirely). EVERY other time we've seen this, it's ruled a touchback.

I can think of no combination of rules which would give Cal the ball on the 1. What happened here, and what SHOULD it have been?
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Old Tue Sep 20, 2016, 03:53pm
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The replay referee is from Laguna Hills CA.
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Old Tue Sep 20, 2016, 05:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
The replay referee is from Laguna Hills CA.
That has nothing to do with anything. I hope you're not insinuating there was a case of conference favoritism going on there?

Looks like they awarded Cal the ball at the one as that's when they deemed he began to lose possession of the ball (my guess there).

Without replay, this would simply be either a touchdown or inadvertent whistle rules would apply, awarding the ball to the team last in possession where possession was lost.

Replay allows a fumble recovery by the other team on an IW if the recovery was immediate. I thought that qualified, but more knowledgeable officials have explained that that is not immediate.

If the recovery had been immediate, then I think a touchback would have been the ruling by the replay official.
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Old Wed Sep 21, 2016, 12:28am
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Quote:
I can think of no combination of rules which would give Cal the ball on the 1.
4-1-2-b-2: fumble that was loose. Replay could only determine that a TD had not occurred -- it could not determine anything further as there was no "clear
recovery in the immediate continuing action" per Rule 12 and the casebook. The Texas player picked the ball up and handed it to an official.

What combination of rules would NOT give Cal the ball on the 1 (assuming they don't score)?

By the way, unless there's a video or a photo at or near the goal line, we can't be sure. But I'm not convinced Cal didn't cross the plane of the goal line. The Cal player dropped the ball right when his left foot hits in the end zone. I'm not even sure how replay found indisputable evidence that the ball didn't cross the goal line.

Quote:
EVERY other time we've seen this, it's ruled a touchback.
Maybe, but those were cases where the defense jumped on it immediately. 2 Texas players ran right by the ball and the third or fourth guy to make it to the end zone was the one that picked up the ball. He didn't run with it so he obviously didn't think it was live.
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Old Wed Sep 21, 2016, 09:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
EVERY other time we've seen this, it's ruled a touchback.
Take a look at Dropping the ball before the end zone, a comprehensive guide. for a list of the ball being fumbled in celebration before reaching the end zone.

In cases where a touchdown was originally ruled and then sent to video review...
1. When the fumbled ball goes into the end zone and immediately out of bounds without recovery, it is correctly called a touchback.
2. If the defense immediately recovers the ball in the end zone, it is correctly called a touchback.
3. Any other time the ball stays inbounds without immediate recovery, the ball is placed at the spot of the fumble. This happens in the NCAA, NFL, and even a high school U.S. Army all-star game (which may have been played under NFHS or NCAA rules...I don't know).
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Old Wed Sep 21, 2016, 02:30pm
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As I said ... I have a dog in the hunt. But I'm trying to view the video(s) impartially.

I find the idea that the ball was not picked up immediately to be very suspect. It was under 3 seconds from when it was dropped, and picked up by the 3rd guy by - the first two were passing the ball as it landed.

If I'm reading the rule right (please tell me if I'm not), it would go to the spot of the fumble if it was not recovered immediately after it stopped. The moment that it stopped was milliseconds before it was picked up. It was rolling from the moment it landed until just BARELY before it was picked up.

In any case ... there's zero chance the ball was dropped at the 1 yard line (this is why I said there was no possible combination of rules to justify putting it at the one). Texas Aggie makes a valid point that it is quite difficult to determine, with 100% certainty, that it was dropped before the goal line. If the ruling was no-fumble, or "the play stands", I would have got that FAR more than what they actually ruled. If he dropped it early, it was WAY closer to the goal line than the 1.
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Old Wed Sep 21, 2016, 03:09pm
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It was under 3 seconds from when it was dropped, and picked up by the 3rd guy
Actually, it was OVER 3 seconds. I timed it several times, all in the 3 second plus range between the time the ball was dropped and when it was then touched.

Immediately means, to me, that the player doesn't break stride in going for the ball. 2 Texas players ran by the ball and a third (or fourth) picked it up but had no intention on continuing to play. That, to me, doesn't satisfy the rule.

I think we agree on the rest.
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Old Wed Sep 21, 2016, 03:14pm
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Doesn't "immediately" start when the ball stops moving?

Another question. Say you are the official ... and you DO see the ball drop before reaching the goal line. Then the rest of the play unfolds as it did. Do you stop play and rule this fumble unrecovered before the Texas player picks it up?
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Old Wed Sep 21, 2016, 07:05pm
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The freeze frame of the moment of drop had the runner's extended left right just at/above the goal line, so the ball was easily well short. Now whether it was 1 yd or 3/4 of a yd? Who cares. Cal's ball on the 1 yd line or the .75 yd line or even the 0.5 line, but no chance it was over the goal line. Game over...score more pts next time, TX.

Edited to add: photographic proof....ball is already well out of his hand and still closer to the 1 yd line than the goal line. And neither of the two TX dudes even attempted to pick it up, the 3rd guy on the scene did - and that was only to give it to the ref. That's not in the immediate continuing action to me.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsncxhmUAAAI0pX.jpg

Last edited by scrounge; Wed Sep 21, 2016 at 07:19pm.
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Old Wed Sep 21, 2016, 08:46pm
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The B gave a signal (TD) that caused a live ball to become dead, which is adjudicated the same as an inadvertent whistle (4-1-2-b-2).

Last edited by InsideTheStripe; Wed Sep 21, 2016 at 09:08pm.
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Old Wed Sep 21, 2016, 08:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
I find the idea that the ball was not picked up immediately to be very suspect. It was under 3 seconds from when it was dropped, and picked up by the 3rd guy by - the first two were passing the ball as it landed.

If I'm reading the rule right (please tell me if I'm not), it would go to the spot of the fumble if it was not recovered immediately after it stopped. The moment that it stopped was milliseconds before it was picked up. It was rolling from the moment it landed until just BARELY before it was picked up.
Had the ball been declared dead because of no immediate recovery, it would have been a touchdown for A.


AR 8-2-1-X

Ball carrier A33 is running toward the Team B goal line. He drops the ball just inside the one-yard line and, thinking he has scored a touchdown, circles through the end zone and runs to his team area. There is no touchdown signal by any official. The fumbled ball hits the ground just outside or just inside the goal line, rolls along the ground in the end zone, and is declared dead there when it comes to rest and no player attempts to recover it. RULING: Touchdown. The ball belongs to the team last in possession at the dead-ball spot. By definition an awarded fumble in the opponent’s end zone is a touchdown. (Rule 7-2-5)

Last edited by InsideTheStripe; Wed Sep 21, 2016 at 08:59pm.
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Old Thu Sep 22, 2016, 07:38am
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OK. This is why I wanted the opinion of impartial officials. Thanks guys.

(And PS - in no way do I think this cost Texas the game. Punting with less than 2 minutes to go cost Texas the game. Giving up 50 freaking points cost Texas the game. Etc.)
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