Touchback or Not

[mizzyref]

Here's the play.. K1 scrimmage kick rolls to 1 foot yard line where K3 standing in the endzone touchs the ball and prevent its from rolling into the endzone. What is the rulling and anyone have casebook study for this rulling?

[Welpe]

It will be 1st and 10 for R at the R-1 foot line.

The governing rule is:

8-5-3 . . . It is a touchback when:

a. Any free kick or scrimmage kick:

1. Which is not a scoring attempt or which is a grounded three-point field-goal attempt, breaks the plane of R's goal line unless R chooses a spot of first touching by K.

The K team player's feet being in the endzone has no bearing on this, only the position of the ball.

[JRutledge]

And the ball is still live as well. K can possess the ball but not return it for extra yardage. If no one goes after the ball I believe it would just be R's ball at the spot where the ball was declared dead.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

FAN Question: Do other codes have a different ruling (in which the location of the feet do matter)?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

FAN Question: Do other codes have a different ruling (in which the location of the feet do matter)?

NFL is different, the feet matter. NCAA is the same as NFHS in that the feet don't matter.

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by Welpe

NFL is different, the feet matter. NCAA is the same as NFHS in that the feet don't matter.

In the given example, you are correct that location of the player or his feet doesn't change the status of the ball in NCAA if the ball remains on the ground at the 1 yard line.

If the ball is in the air, however, the status of the feet can come into play in NCAA as a player can reach over the goal line and prevent a touchback if the ball has not yet touched the ground in the end zone. NFHS declares the ball dead and a touchback as soon as it breaks the plane of the goal line, whether it is rolling, bouncing or still in flight from the kick. NCAA requires the ball to touch the ground before being a touch back.

The only thing I'm missing is whether in NCAA a player reaching over the goal line from the end zone and touching ball in the air (bouncing or in flight) creates a touchback because the ball is immediately considered to be in the end zone. I couldn't find the rule reference to support that, but my understanding was that in NCAA, a ball on the ground is considered to be at that location but a ball bouncing or in the air is considered to be at the location of the player when he touches it (or where he was last touching the ground if he is airborne when touching the ball).

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

If the ball is in the air, however, the status of the feet can come into play in NCAA as a player can reach over the goal line and prevent a touchback if the ball has not yet touched the ground in the end zone.

The feet are irrelevant in NCAA as well. A ball batted backwards by Team A over the endzone is considered illegal touching in the endzone. It wouldn't be a touchback and the ball would still be live but Team B would snap the ball at the B-20.

Conversely, a Team A player could be standing in the endzone and bat the ball at the B-1 back towards his goal line and the illegal touching would where the ball was touched.

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

The only thing I'm missing is whether in NCAA a player reaching over the goal line from the end zone and touching ball in the air (bouncing or in flight) creates a touchback because the ball is immediately considered to be in the end zone. I couldn't find the rule reference to support that, but my understanding was that in NCAA, a ball on the ground is considered to be at that location but a ball bouncing or in the air is considered to be at the location of the player when he touches it (or where he was last touching the ground if he is airborne when touching the ball).

You're thinking of a player being out of bounds and touching the ball. That doesn't apply in the endzone. The ball actually has to strike the ground, untouched by Team B, in the endzone for it to be a touchback.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

FAN Question: Do other codes have a different ruling (in which the location of the feet do matter)?

NFL. Originally it was written to state that in case of doubt as to whether the ball was in the end zone, if it was touched by or touched a player of the kicking team touching the ground in the opposing end zone, it was in the end zone. Officials then began ruling on that basis exclusively, whether there was actual doubt or not as to the position of the ball, so NFL codified it that way rather than based on the position of the ball when the ball isn't touching the ground.

In NFL rules, then, it's a goal line (on the ground) rather than a plane that decides this issue as in Fed & NCAA, and position of a player touching the ground takes precedence over that of a ball. So a player who last touched ground in the field of play can save the ball from a position over the end zone, while a player of the attacking team who last touched ground in goal can produce a touchback even with the ball in the field of play, even if the ball is on the ground.