Wisconsin vs. Duke - National Championship - Master Thread

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Good call...arms no where near vertical.

Out of all the calls all night, I hated this call. To me the Duke player shoved his shoulder and caused the Wisconsin player to "bow" and IMO this should have been a no call.

Peace

[ODog]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Out of all the calls all night, I hated this call. To me the Duke player shoved his shoulder and caused the Wisconsin player to "bow" and IMO this should have been a no call.

Agree, and I like your way of putting it. His arms were forced into being not so vertical. Winslow not only bulled his way directly into the chest of a legal defender, he shoved him with the ball too, even if much more subtly than Sabonis in the Elite 8.

And because the result went in his favor, Winslow figured he'd go a step further and literally run right through and over a legal defender (Dukan) in the second half ... and he got the call then, too!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ODog

Agree, and I like your way of putting it. His arms were forced into being not so vertical. Winslow not only bulled his way directly into the chest of a legal defender, he shoved him with the ball too, even if much more subtly than Sabonis in the Elite 8.

And because the result went in his favor, Winslow figured he'd go a step further and literally run right through and over a legal defender (Dukan) in the second half ... and he got the call then, too!

I have to agree. Neither of these were quality calls.

[sosinsurr]

NCAA Head of Officials John Adams on how title game refs missed the controversial out-of-bounds call:

https://soundcloud.com/siriusxmcolle...medium=twitter

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by sosinsurr

NCAA Head of Officials John Adams on how title game refs missed the controversial out-of-bounds call:

https://soundcloud.com/siriusxmcolle...medium=twitter

Great post! Thanks.
Honest answers by John Adams.
He confirms that the game officials did not see the definitive replay which we got watching on TV. That's a failure of the system and DVsports should lose the contract over that.
Huge item revealed by Adams that he saw the definitive replay in time to go to the table and summon the officials back to view that before restarting play, but elected not to get involved. I can see merit in both positions--for the coordinator to get involved or not. Personally, I would have held up play and had the guys come look at every replay available, especially if I knew that there was an important one which they hadn't seen. I would have done so because of the intense scrutiny that these officials receive in the media and from the spectating public. I would feel that it is my duty to protect my guys by giving them every possible opportunity to get a very important play right and avoid some of the criticism. I don't agree with sitting back and doing nothing while knowing that your guys are going to get ripped for something when you can prevent it and eliminate the coming public outcry. When weighing whether to intervene or not, I think that the leader of NCAA officiating should take the side of getting the correct decision for the integrity of the game. He wouldn't be actually making the call, just providing the opportunity for the crew to see/have more/necessary information.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's a failure of the system and DVsports should lose the contract over that.
Huge item revealed by Adams that he saw the definitive replay in time to go to the table and summon the officials back to view that before restarting play, but elected not to get involved. I can see merit in both positions--for the coordinator to get involved or not. Personally, I would have held up play and had the guys come look at every replay available, especially if I knew that there was an important one which they hadn't seen. I would have done so because of the intense scrutiny that these officials receive in the media and from the spectating public. I would feel that it is my duty to protect my guys by giving them every possible opportunity to get a very important play right and avoid some of the criticism. I don't agree with sitting back and doing nothing while knowing that your guys are going to get ripped for something when you can prevent it and eliminate the coming public outcry. When weighing whether to intervene or not, I think that the leader of NCAA officiating should take the side of getting the correct decision for the integrity of the game. He wouldn't be actually making the call, just providing the opportunity for the crew to see/have more/necessary information.

To each his own. If the officials didn't see the right replay, it's not on them at all, but rather it's on whoever set up the replay system. So, people may criticize all they want, but...... Also, I'm a little vague about where he would have/could have taken the officials to see another better replay, but wherever it was, I don't think it would be proper for Adams to personally inject himself into the contest itself in any way while it is going on. jmo

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Great post! Thanks.
Honest answers by John Adams.
He confirms that the game officials did not see the definitive replay which we got watching on TV. That's a failure of the system and DVsports should lose the contract over that.
Huge item revealed by Adams that he saw the definitive replay in time to go to the table and summon the officials back to view that before restarting play, but elected not to get involved. I can see merit in both positions--for the coordinator to get involved or not. Personally, I would have held up play and had the guys come look at every replay available, especially if I knew that there was an important one which they hadn't seen. I would have done so because of the intense scrutiny that these officials receive in the media and from the spectating public. I would feel that it is my duty to protect my guys by giving them every possible opportunity to get a very important play right and avoid some of the criticism. I don't agree with sitting back and doing nothing while knowing that your guys are going to get ripped for something when you can prevent it and eliminate the coming public outcry. When weighing whether to intervene or not, I think that the leader of NCAA officiating should take the side of getting the correct decision for the integrity of the game. He wouldn't be actually making the call, just providing the opportunity for the crew to see/have more/necessary information.

He was left with a bad choice of getting it right the wrong way or getting it wrong the right way. There is no good choice choice there but I think he would have opened a can of worms on the order of that one US/USSR Olympic game had he intervened with no rules authority to do so .

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

He was left with a bad choice of getting it right the wrong way or getting it wrong the right way. There is no good choice choice there but I think he would have opened a can of worms on the order of that one US/USSR Olympic game had he intervened with no rules authority to do so .

I agree with this sentiment. Once someone does it that first time, all major TV sports will then have that expectation, and it will trickle down. There is an alternate sitting at the table, he should be the one reviewing all the broadcast angles the announcers are viewing while the on-court crew is reviewing at their monitor.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Same in that both plays were late in close games and incorrectly called blocks. Given John Adams apparent love for blocking fouls to encourage scoring and driving into the lane, and the limited knowledge the general public has in regards to LGP I think DeRosa correctly figured in both cases that calling a block would be more palatable.

Originally Posted by Eastshire

He was left with a bad choice of getting it right the wrong way or getting it wrong the right way. There is no good choice choice there but I think he would have opened a can of worms on the order of that one US/USSR Olympic game had he intervened with no rules authority to do so .

You are both correct.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Full disclosure:

1) Kansas is always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) my first choice to win in my pools because my Mother graduated from Kansas.

2) Duke is always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) my second choice to win in my pools because one if my H.S. teammates started for Duke from 1972-75.

3) Maryland is always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) my third choice to win in my pools because a basketball letterman from my H.S. (everybody who played basketball for our H.S. basketball coach from 1951 to 1971 consider themselves a member of a fraternity of sorts) started for Maryland from 1963-66.

But I thought that this was a tossup game and both teams would be worthy champions.

And it should be remembered that Lucas Oil Stadium has not been good to Wisconsin in championship games. The last time a Wisconsin team played a championship game in Lucas Oil Stadium it didn't score a point.


That said:

1) I was surprised that the out of bounds call with just under two minutes in the game was not overturned.

2) The uproar over not calling a FF1 against the Duke player in the first half. In my opinion it was a FF1 but as I read the rules replay could not have been used because not foul was called in the first place. And from the TV angle as the play happened it was difficult to see the contact and I don't know if either of the officials would have been able to see it.

3) I was surprised at the number of charges that were called blocks. These were calls that I would have expected H.S. officials with at least two years of experience would have been able to correctly call. I thought that there were about four calls that were called blocks that were charges and there were no excuses for them to be called anything but charges. And everybody knows my position about guarding and screening.

I am taking about no more than six plays out of the hundreds of yes/no decisions that the officials had to make. Therefore, I thought the game was well officiated, just a tad bit too much contact in the paint for my taste but I still think the officials did a good job.

MTD, Sr.

[Kansas Ref]

*You pretty much see the same types of "missed calls" (e.g., missing the oob on duke) and "suspect calls" (e.g., calling a block against LGP’d defensive player) made by refs who officiate 8th grade girls games as you do in these primo games. Despite those refs being regarded as “top level”, they are prone to the same lapses in judgment, erroneous calls, and missed calls that inhere with all refs.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*You pretty much see the same types of "missed calls" (e.g., missing the oob on duke) and "suspect calls" (e.g., calling a block against LGP’d defensive player) made by refs who officiate 8th grade girls games as you do in these primo games. Despite those refs being regarded as “top level”, they are prone to the same lapses in judgment, erroneous calls, and missed calls that inhere with all refs.

Welcome to the avocation of officiating! The only job where you are expected to be perfect the first time out and get better from there on.

The shocking thing to me was the lack of travel calls. Both sides did it but there were lots. First was Decker, then several duke player, then Kaminski, then Allen I think near the end on one of his key made baskets at the end. I'm not talking nit picking travels either. Of course, I've never missed one from the stands. Verne Harris said travels were his worst call and that's the way he wanted it. It's now NBA'esque in regards to travelling. I need to adapt next season. I've always called less than my partners but thought I was just weak on the call. Turns out I was just ahead of my time.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Out of all the calls all night, I hated this call. To me the Duke player shoved his shoulder and caused the Wisconsin player to "bow" and IMO this should have been a no call.

I'm with ya JRut. I think players at this level should be expected to play through that amount of arms.