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-   -   Gonzaga vs Duke Push with ball (Video) (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/99613-gonzaga-vs-duke-push-ball-video.html)

Nevadaref Mon Mar 30, 2015 08:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 959680)
10-6-1: A player shall not ....push........by extending arms......


The fact that this player is holding the basketball is not significant. It is a personal foul.

There is no comparison between the OP and a player deliberately throwing the ball at another player.
It reads "by extending arms," not by extending the ball.

Raymond Mon Mar 30, 2015 08:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 959659)
The ball to person contact question is easy to answer Billy.
What type of foul would you charge if a player deliberately threw the ball into his opponent's chest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 959669)
It seems unsporting, but I'm leaning toward personal.

Wait. I've changed my mind.

Wait again.
I hope you are joking.

just another ref Mon Mar 30, 2015 08:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 959688)
It reads "by extending arms," not by extending the ball.

Can you extend the ball without using your arms?

Raymond Mon Mar 30, 2015 08:35pm
So I guess if a player grabs a rebound then taps the ball against the backboard we are going to call a T for smacking the backboard since the ball and the hand are the same thing?

Nevadaref Mon Mar 30, 2015 08:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 959691)
Can you extend the ball without using your arms?
Nope, one must extend ARMS to push. That is exactly what 10-6-1 says. What if the player doesn't have the ball? Do you think that the rule doesn't apply to him? The rule is clearly written to cover action with the arms.

just another ref Mon Mar 30, 2015 08:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 959693)
Nope, one must extend ARMS to push. That is exactly what 10-6-1 says. What if the player doesn't have the ball? Do you think that the rule doesn't apply to him? The rule is clearly written to cover action with the arms.

So in the OP you don't have a PC foul. You're going with a T or no call at all?

A T? The foul was not flagrant, intentional, or unsporting. But there was displacement and advantage gained.


So?

Nevadaref Mon Mar 30, 2015 08:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 959694)
So in the OP you don't have a PC foul. You're going with a T or no call at all?

A T? The contact was not flagrant, intentional, or unsporting. But there was displacement and advantage gained.


So?
I have nothing. I would also have nothing if the defender blocked a shot attempt while the ball was still in the offensive player's hands and the force applied to the ball caused the offensive player to be displaced or fall to the ground.

just another ref Mon Mar 30, 2015 08:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 959696)
I have nothing. I would also have nothing if the defender blocked a shot attempt while the ball was still in the offensive player's hands and the force applied to the ball caused the offensive player to be displaced or fall to the ground.

So you would recommend teaching this tactic. It could be useful when a player has a big size advantage and can palm the ball. Extend the ball and give the opponent a shove, thus creating some space, and score.

Adam Mon Mar 30, 2015 08:53pm
If a player uses the ball to push an opponent, the chances are slim that I'll be able to see that there was no hand to body contact. I'm not that good.

just another ref Mon Mar 30, 2015 09:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 959699)
If a player uses the ball to push an opponent, the chances are slim that I'll be able to see that there was no hand to body contact. I'm not that good.
I think that's what happened in the o p. But I don't see that it makes any difference.

Jay R Tue Mar 31, 2015 05:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 959549)
Using the ball as you own personal mechanism to displace an opponent may not be specifically spelled out in the rule book for some folks on here but here is a spot where common sense should kick in.
And as these responses prove, common sense doesn't always kick in. Here the official calls a player control foul which no one questions. The game continues smoothly. Imagine no calling that play and then saying to the coach it's a no call because he used to "ball" to push off. The game does not continue smoothly.

You can say that I'm ignoring the rule, but I am following the spirit of the rule.

Raymond Tue Mar 31, 2015 07:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 959709)
I think that's what happened in the o p. But I don't see that it makes any difference.
You haven't answered Nevada's question about the blocked shot.

deecee Tue Mar 31, 2015 08:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 959737)
You haven't answered Nevada's question about the blocked shot.
Comparing a blocked shot to a willful use of the ball to cause displacement is 2 completely different actions and cannot be compared.

Raymond Tue Mar 31, 2015 08:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 959738)
Comparing a blocked shot to a willful use of the ball to cause displacement is 2 completely different actions and cannot be compared.
Oh, so now intent matters? If A1 loses his balance and in the process sticks the ball out and accidentally knocks down a defender, it's not a foul?

deecee Tue Mar 31, 2015 08:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 959739)
Oh, so now intent matters? If A1 loses his balance and in the process sticks the ball out and accidentally knocks down a defender, it's not a foul?
You are really working hard to come up with crazy hypotheticals to prove your point. I say tomato, you say elephant.


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