The Dayton no-call (video)

[APG]

Better quality clip of play:

[youngump]

Originally Posted by APG

Better quality clip of play:

From that view it appears to me that the angle between the arm and the vertical of the player is about 30 degrees. Those of you who see this player as okay vertically, is that because you think the angle is less than that or because you think that amount of leaning over a shooter is okay?

[jpgc99]

The one issue I have on this play is that the trail official does not signal the 3 point try. As I said earlier, I'm okay with the no-call, but the trail official invites extra scrutiny by not signalling the 3pt try. It makes me question how engaged he was in the play.

If he had appeared more engaged and signaled the 3pt try, I would be more confident in supporting a no-call.

[BryanV21]

While the defender is not perfectly vertical, and may even be outside his own verticality, you can't dismiss the fact that the shooter is clearly jumping into the defender to try and draw a foul. By calling a shooting foul here you're bailing out the shooter.

Also, if the shooter wasn't jumping into the defense to draw a foul, the contact wouldn't have happened in the first place, making the shooter at least partially at fault. Should his fault be pushed aside? I don't think so.

No call.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

While the defender is not perfectly vertical, and may even be outside his own verticality, you can't dismiss the fact that the shooter is clearly jumping into the defender to try and draw a foul. By calling a shooting foul here you're bailing out the shooter.

Also, if the shooter wasn't jumping into the defense to draw a foul, the contact wouldn't have happened in the first place, making the shooter at least partially at fault. Should his fault be pushed aside? I don't think so.

No call.

I'm fine with that analysis. Or at least fine enough not to wander into the weeds of it, but your at clear disagreement with a number of people on this board who say he was in his own vertical space.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by youngump

... your at clear disagreement with a number of people on this board who say he was in his own vertical space.

I didn't not say he was or wasn't vertical. I said that "while the defender is not perfectly vertical, and may even be outside his own verticality..."

[Rob1968]

It appears to me that the contact, caused by the shooter, is on the hand of the shooter which is holding the ball. There is not enough responsibility for illegal contact by the defender to call a foul.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by youngump

I'm fine with that analysis. Or at least fine enough not to wander into the weeds of it, but your at clear disagreement with a number of people on this board who say he was in his own vertical space.

Oh, the defender was not vertical. But I have the shooter moving forward into his stationary arm and creating contact with an unnatural shooting motion.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

It appears to me that the contact, caused by the shooter, is on the hand of the shooter which is holding the ball. There is not enough responsibility for illegal contact by the defender to call a foul.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Oh, the defender was not vertical. But I have the shooter moving forward into his stationary arm and creating contact with an unnatural shooting motion.

And, the first point of contact appeared to be the defenders armpit area, not the arm that was over the shooter. Any contact with the lower arm was secondary at that point.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

While the defender is not perfectly vertical, and may even be outside his own verticality, you can't dismiss the fact that the shooter is clearly jumping into the defender to try and draw a foul. By calling a shooting foul here you're bailing out the shooter.

One could say that by not calling a foul, you're bailing out the defender who did not play good defense...cause honestly, the defender was not playing good defense here. He jumps at a 3 point shooter. At the point of contact, the defender is nowhere near vertical....if you want to say the contact is marginal, I can see that. But let's not act like this defender plays good defense or was anywhere near vertical.

[SamIAm]

From a former official (me) - I see a try with contact between arm of shooter and defender's arm with defender trying to contest the shot with arms forward and up (outside defender's verticality). A1 is under no obligation to avoid defender's positioning. Foul.

[JeffM]

I think that is a great no call. I agree that this play is often called a foul, but it isn't always called a foul.

The shooter stepped into the defender and initiated contact with the arms. If the shooter went straight up with the intent of making the shot, he likely would have gotten the shot off without it being blocked.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

While the defender is not perfectly vertical, and may even be outside his own verticality, you can't dismiss the fact that the shooter is clearly jumping into the defender to try and draw a foul. By calling a shooting foul here you're bailing out the shooter.

^^^^^This. I think he (the defender) is awfully lucky the shooter didn't go up with the shot right away.

The contact was initiated by the shooter so I'm not too concerned with verticality here. True, the defender is not vertical and if the shooter hadn't jumped into the defender the whole play changes.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mregor

^^^^^This. I think he (the defender) is awfully lucky the shooter didn't go up with the shot right away.

The contact was initiated by the shooter so I'm not too concerned with verticality here. True, the defender is not vertical and if the shooter hadn't jumped into the defender the whole play changes.

You have to be concerned -- if I draw you off the floor and you're not vertical, of course I'm going to initiate contact with you. It's what good players do on a pump fake, after all. It's still a foul on the defense.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Mregor

^^^^^This. I think he (the defender) is awfully lucky the shooter didn't go up with the shot right away.

The contact was initiated by the shooter so I'm not too concerned with verticality here. True, the defender is not vertical and if the shooter hadn't jumped into the defender the whole play changes.

The shooter can initiate contact and still have a foul called on the defender.