Utah v Oregon late fouls (Video)

[Nevadaref]

Two tough whistles go against Oregon in the final dozen seconds allowing Utah to tie, yet Oregon hits a long 3 to win it with about a second left.

The fouls to examine:
1. PC call with 12.1 seconds left
2. Handchecking foul with 7.2 remaining.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. PC call with 12.1 seconds left

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2. Handchecking foul with 7.2 remaining.

[hbk314]

As a non-official, I assume the first one was called because the player with the ball appeared to lower his shoulder?

For the second one, that seems really weak, but wasn't that a POE from last year, or am I misunderstanding?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by hbk314

As a non-official, I assume the first one was called because the player with the ball appeared to lower his shoulder?

For the second one, that seems really weak, but wasn't that a POE from last year, or am I misunderstanding?

Despite what some may tell you, lowering the shoulder by itself is not necessarily a foul. However, if that lowered shoulder displaces and legally position defender, it will be an offensive foul. If, instead, the defender were not legal, it would have been a defensive foul despite the shoulder being lowered.

The second one is an example of a defender not being in a legal position. He never obtained "Legal Guarding Position". That is two feet on the floor in the path of the dribbler while also facing the dribbler. Having never obtained that, the defender can't be moving if there is contact. He was moving and it disrupted the dribblers movement....thus it was a foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Despite what some may tell you, lowering the shoulder by itself it not necessarily a foul.

Why does this myth persist among non-officials when one never hears officials, even bad officials, mention this?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Why does this myth persist among non-officials when one never hears officials, even bad officials, mention this?

because so many players make contact by lowering the shoulder.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Why does this myth persist among non-officials when one never hears officials, even bad officials, mention this?

Because we do hear officials, even good officials, use that as the reason for the foul. I've heard it from some that are otherwise very good officials and expect to continue hearing it. :/

[ODog]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The second one is an example of a defender not being in a legal position. He never obtained "Legal Guarding Position". That is two feet on the floor in the path of the dribbler while also facing the dribbler.

Is the bolded portion an NCAA thing?

Originally Posted by ODog

Is the bolded portion an NCAA thing?

No, it exists in the NFHS definition of guarding too:

NFHS 4-23-1 "Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent."

The understanding is that the "path" qualification also falls under the LGP umbrella because you must first be guarding someone before can establish Legal Guarding Position. Thus if you are not in the path of the opponent you cannot be guarding them and thus cannot establish or maintain LGP.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ODog

Is the bolded portion an NCAA thing?

Rule 4 Section 17. Guarding

Art. 1. Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. The guarding position shall be initially established and then maintained inbounds on the playing court.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ODog

Is the bolded portion an NCAA thing?

If you think about it for just a bit, it makes complete sense too.....

A1, dribbling the ball passing through the center circle, heading directly towards the basket. B5, guarding A5 in the corner of the court briefly turns to face A1 and has both feet on the floor. B5 realizes A1 has a clear path to the basket. B5 cuts across the floor at a full sprint getting in front of A1 just in time for A1 to run into the side of B5.

Did B5 ever have LGP on A1? Have you ever seen a charge called in such a play?


Another one....

A1, dribbling the ball passing through the center circle, heading directly towards the basket. B1, trailing A1, is facing A1 and briefly has both feet on the floor. B1, being faster, is able to overtake A1. B1 cuts in front of A1 such that A1 collides with the back of B1.

Did B5 ever have LGP on A1?. Have you ever seen a charge called in such a play? I haven't...it is a block 100% of the time.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by hbk314

As a non-official, I assume the first one was called because the player with the ball appeared to lower his shoulder?
...

Officials don't make calls because of "lowering a shoulder". He displaced a defender who had LGP.

[hbk314]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Officials don't make calls because of "lowering a shoulder". He displaced a defender who had LGP.

Is there a point where displacing a defender without LGP can still be a PC foul?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by hbk314

Is there a point where displacing a defender without LGP can still be a PC foul?

Yes. It can occur with a pushoff/clearout using the hands/arms. If the defender is stationary but doesn't have LGP (e.g., never facing) then it can even occur with torso to torso contact. If the defender doesn't have LGP and is moving, then torso to torso contact will a block.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by hbk314

Is there a point where displacing a defender without LGP can still be a PC foul?

In NCAA-Men's, defenders in the RA arc are protected against extended arms, knees, and feet from the offensive players.