"Self-Pass" Violation?

[chymechowder]

A1 is dribbling in backcourt. He makes a 2-handed bounce pass to A2, who's running alongside him. A2 never sees the pass and continues running into the frontcourt.

A1 runs over to the bouncing ball, and while stationary, recovers it.

Violation?

[ODog]

Yes. Illegal dribble.

But for your own edification, there is no such thing as a self pass, as a pass is, by definition, thrown to a teammate.

The dribble ended when he touched it with 2 hands to attempt a pass. When he recovered it, it constituted a second dribble.

Originally Posted by ODog

Yes. Illegal dribble.

But for your own edification, there is no such thing as a self pass, as a pass is, by definition, thrown to a teammate.

The dribble ended when he touched it with 2 hands to attempt a pass. When he recovered it, it constituted a second dribble.

Pretty much. For new refs who might be reading this thread, understand you must decide if the player in fact ended the dribble and tried to pass, or simply fumbled the ball. If it is a fumble you can always go recover it. Remember a player can fumble a pass to him by another player, gather the ball, start a dribble, fumble the ball again, and recover it, all legally. If the player dribbles again after the fumble, dribble, fumble it is a violation. I had a play during camp a couple years ago where a player at the elbow fumbled it, gathered it, and shot the ball. Coach went nuts but my partner got praised by the clinicians for his no-call. Never mind that all of this happened in my primary. I'm not bitter I swear.

[mutantducky]

the tricky ones can be when a player dribbling, makes a one handed pass to his teammate close-by who doesn't see the ball as in the OP. I saw that in a JC playoff game last week, the the player just got the ball. It started off as a pass but then he didn't let it go fully and he got it quickly back. Kind of a half pass if that makes sense. The ref let it go.
If it isn't a carry on the pass, say just a dribble then one handed bounce pass, ok for the player to go get it and continue his dribble?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

the tricky ones can be when a player dribbling, makes a one handed pass to his teammate close-by who doesn't see the ball as in the OP. I saw that in a JC playoff game last week, the the player just got the ball. It started off as a pass but then he didn't let it go fully and he got it quickly back. Kind of a half pass if that makes sense. The ref let it go.
If it isn't a carry on the pass, say just a dribble then one handed bounce pass, ok for the player to go get it and continue his dribble?

Yep....assuming, as you said, that in trying to "pass" the ball the player never let the ball come to rest in a hand. It is just an odd dribble.

[chymechowder]

Thanks. So if A1 receives a backcourt throw-in. Doesn't dribble. Throws it towards A2, who doesn't see the "pass." Then A1 could legally recover? As long as his pivot foot wasn't off the ground when he threw the ball?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by chymechowder

A1 is dribbling in backcourt. He makes a 2-handed bounce pass to A2, who's running alongside him. A2 never sees the pass and continues running into the frontcourt.

A1 runs over to the bouncing ball, and while stationary, recovers it.

Violation?

A1 is dribbling in the backcourt and throws a 2-handed pass 20ft into the frontcourt; A1 then runs, stops to get stationary, and retrieves the ball. Violation?

Does the distance, or being stationary make a difference?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

the tricky ones can be when a player dribbling, makes a one handed pass to his teammate close-by who doesn't see the ball as in the OP. I saw that in a JC playoff game last week, the the player just got the ball. It started off as a pass but then he didn't let it go fully and he got it quickly back. Kind of a half pass if that makes sense. The ref let it go.
If it isn't a carry on the pass, say just a dribble then one handed bounce pass, ok for the player to go get it and continue his dribble?

Did he do anything to end his dribble?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

A1 is dribbling in the backcourt and throws a 2-handed pass 20ft into the frontcourt; A1 then runs, stops to get stationary, and retrieves the ball. Violation?

Does the distance, or being stationary make a difference?

No, but the fact that he was dribbling first and ended the dribble to attempt the "pass" does.

(I know you know that, but I don't want any readers to come away with the impression that any "self pass" is a violation.")

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chymechowder

Thanks. So if A1 receives a backcourt throw-in. Doesn't dribble. Throws it towards A2, who doesn't see the "pass." Then A1 could legally recover? As long as his pivot foot wasn't off the ground when he threw the ball?

Why wouldn't it be legal?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chymechowder

Thanks. So if A1 receives a backcourt throw-in. Doesn't dribble. Throws it towards A2, who doesn't see the "pass." Then A1 could legally recover? As long as his pivot foot wasn't off the ground when he threw the ball?

It's just a "long dribble." There's a specific case on this (sorry, no books handy to give the specific reference)

[chymechowder]

yeah I was confused last night on the definition of pass and dribble as it relates to intent....the forum replies helped me realize that the player's intent doesn't matter. it's just whether he has completed a dribble or not before "passing"

thanks!