Ejection Championship Game

[deecee]

Why should my tolerance change?

Do my responsibilities change?
Is the pay changed by a "nice" margin?
Do the rules change?

These are automatic. In fact if the second comment was said first the kid's done in my game.

[twocentsworth]

if you whack the best player on a team and throw him out in ANY game - let alone a playoff game, you better provide the coach w/ an explanation. to do otherwise would simply be a complete lack of officiating common sense and game management.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

if you whack the best player on a team and throw him out in ANY game - let alone a playoff game, you better provide the coach w/ an explanation. to do otherwise would simply be a complete lack of officiating common sense and game management.

Is our job to differentiate between the best player and everyone else?

To not whack or throw out ANY player for this kind of behavior, or to not whack or throw out a player on the basis that he is the best player on the team, would also simply be a complete lack of officiating common sense and game management. It would also fly right in the face of what our job mandates we do. Our responsibilities don't change because of the game's platform, believe it or not.

And please show me where our job description mandates that we give a coach an explanation after throwing out the best player. If (s)he wants an explanation, (s)he'll let me know with his/her words or body language.

Your insistence on avoiding technical fouls and ejections at all costs is not going to get you far.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Is our job to differentiate between the best player and everyone else?

To not whack or throw out ANY player for this kind of behavior, or to not whack or throw out a player on the basis that he is the best player on the team, would also simply be a complete lack of officiating common sense and game management. It would also fly right in the face of what our job mandates we do. Our responsibilities don't change because of the game's platform, believe it or not.

And please show me where our job description mandates that we give a coach an explanation after throwing out the best player. If (s)he wants an explanation, (s)he'll let me know with his/her words or body language.

Your insistence on avoiding technical fouls and ejections at all costs is not going to get you far.

This is a classic example of how important communication skills are in being a good official…..NOWHERE in my post did I say, hint, or infer that, based on the OP, I would NOT give a T or eject the player in question. I ONLY said, that IF you throw the best player on the team out of the game (or any player really), you definitely owe the head coach an explanation.

You CANNOT assume the head coach knows why you ejected the kid…just like you CANNOT assume meaning to a statement/post that I did not say/post.

The best officials posses two key components (before you assume that these are the ONLY "ingredients" - there are others…): judgement & communication (be it mechanics, dealing w/ players/coaches, or any # of other communicative elements).

Any call (or non-call) made in a game is based on the view or angle that an official has on the play. Because your view is different than the view that virtually everyone else in the gym/arena has, it causes people to sometimes have a different opinion as to what happened. In certain situations (like the one described in the OP), you will need to explain/discuss with people what you saw and why you ruled the way you did.

An official can certainly make calls and NOT explain/discuss/talk with anyone during a game, but that official should expect that he/she will not receive the games/advancement that he/she desires in the future. If someone thinks that officiating is ONLY about "getting the calls right", then they are not living in the real world of officiating.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

This is a classic example of how important communication skills are in being a good official…..NOWHERE in my post did I say, hint, or infer that, based on the OP, I would NOT give a T or eject the player in question. I ONLY said, that IF you throw the best player on the team out of the game (or any player really), you definitely owe the head coach an explanation.

You CANNOT assume the head coach knows why you ejected the kid…just like you CANNOT assume meaning to a statement/post that I did not say/post.

The best officials posses two key components (before you assume that these are the ONLY "ingredients" - there are others…): judgement & communication (be it mechanics, dealing w/ players/coaches, or any # of other communicative elements).

Any call (or non-call) made in a game is based on the view or angle that an official has on the play. Because your view is different than the view that virtually everyone else in the gym/arena has, it causes people to sometimes have a different opinion as to what happened. In certain situations (like the one described in the OP), you will need to explain/discuss with people what you saw and why you ruled the way you did.

An official can certainly make calls and NOT explain/discuss/talk with anyone during a game, but that official should expect that he/she will not receive the games/advancement that he/she desires in the future. If someone thinks that officiating is ONLY about "getting the calls right", then they are not living in the real world of officiating.

We "owe" the head coach an explanation so long as he is respectful and actually asks for one.

Every time there is a discussion about behavior/ejections/technical fouls on this forum, you show up and preach about how important it is to communicate and be the bigger person. We get it, most of us have been doing this for a very long time and are well aware of how important it is to communicate. We don't need a tutorial every time the topic comes up.

If the coach doesn't want an explanation, why would you give it to him? If he knows what the kid said to get himself tossed, do you honestly think he needs you repeating it to him? If the coach needs an explanation, he'll ask for it. As BNR said, sometimes explanations aren't needed.

What "people" other than the head coach would need an explanation? The fans? The assistants?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SC Official

If the coach needs an explanation, he'll ask for it. As BNR said, sometimes explanations aren't needed.

Agreed -- and sometimes the coach "asks" non-verbally -- it doesn't need th be a "Hey, Ref -- what did he say?"

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SC Official

If the coach doesn't want an explanation, why would you give it to him? If he knows what the kid said to get himself tossed, do you honestly think he needs you repeating it to him? If the coach needs an explanation, he'll ask for it. As BNR said, sometimes explanations aren't needed.

What "people" other than the head coach would need an explanation? The fans? The assistants?

Possible ways this goes with the coach.

1. He's standing at the edge of the coaching box, looking confused. I walk close enough so my normal speaking voice reaches the coach, "Did you hear what he said, coach?" If he says no, I'm going to get closer and repeated it quietly. If he says yes, then we're good to go and I'm heading to my spot.

2. He calls me over to him after/as I report the Ts. I walk over, and if his first words aren't some variant of "what did he say?", then I know he doesn't want an explanation and I'm turning around and heading to my spot.

The explanation here is simply what the kid said, and won't involve any discussions about how the comments made me feel or how the coach thinks I should have called the foul his kid wanted.

I'm often willing to discuss why I didn't call a foul with a player or coach, but that little display eliminates that possibility at this point.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by SC Official

We "owe" the head coach an explanation so long as he is respectful and actually asks for one.

Every time there is a discussion about behavior/ejections/technical fouls on this forum, you show up and preach about how important it is to communicate and be the bigger person. We get it, most of us have been doing this for a very long time and are well aware of how important it is to communicate. We don't need a tutorial every time the topic comes up.

If the coach doesn't want an explanation, why would you give it to him? If he knows what the kid said to get himself tossed, do you honestly think he needs you repeating it to him? If the coach needs an explanation, he'll ask for it. As BNR said, sometimes explanations aren't needed.

What "people" other than the head coach would need an explanation? The fans? The assistants?

If you understand the value of communication and have been officiating as long as you have, then you understand WHO in certain situations (please don't make the same mistake as others who have conveniently ignored the "in certain situations"-phrase I purposely used in my previous post) need an explanation.

btw, for those who aren't as skilled and experienced as SC Official, the "people" i refer to are head coaches and players. When I say players, I do not mean players sitting on the bench; former players who are sitting in the stands; or any other person other than this: the player directly involved in the play!

I hope that clears up any confusion that someone may have. Of course, I'm sure that there will be others to come along and mis-represent/mis-interpret this post despite my best communicative intentions.

[Pantherdreams]

Coach's job is to coach. If he needs info from me to help him do that, and its phrased as a question that I can quickly answer to help him, help the kid, and help the game then they get explanations when asked for.

I'm not talking about "How are you calling that after you let x go?" or "What the hell?"

Its pretty common practice here that a kid gets a T/intentional/flagrant/unsportsmanlike and coaches are sending a sub to the table regardless even up into varsity and small college levels. If they aren't sure what happened they will often ask "What did they do?" and its not to start a debate its so he/she can direct the conversation they need to have with the kid.

Maybe in FIBA its a little more common because we've got some automatic unsportsmanlike fouls, that aren't the kid being dirty or excessive its just automatic in the situation, so a lot of coaches get into the habit of trying to establish if their kid was out of control or if it was just an automatic.

ie. A1 is turning the corner to breakaway B1 tries to get back in the play and knocks A1 down from the side. I come up unsportsmanlike. Now the coach is going to want to know if their player shoved/was dirty etc or if its just an automatic clear path for fouling from the side or behind. This questioning tends to get extended to any non common foul without many bad results, just information to help the coaches deal with the player and the situation.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

This is a classic example of how important communication skills are in being a good official…..NOWHERE in my post did I say, hint, or infer that, based on the OP, I would NOT give a T or eject the player in question. I ONLY said, that IF you throw the best player on the team out of the game (or any player really), you definitely owe the head coach an explanation.

You CANNOT assume the head coach knows why you ejected the kid…just like you CANNOT assume meaning to a statement/post that I did not say/post.

The best officials posses two key components (before you assume that these are the ONLY "ingredients" - there are others…): judgement & communication (be it mechanics, dealing w/ players/coaches, or any # of other communicative elements).

Any call (or non-call) made in a game is based on the view or angle that an official has on the play. Because your view is different than the view that virtually everyone else in the gym/arena has, it causes people to sometimes have a different opinion as to what happened. In certain situations (like the one described in the OP), you will need to explain/discuss with people what you saw and why you ruled the way you did.

An official can certainly make calls and NOT explain/discuss/talk with anyone during a game, but that official should expect that he/she will not receive the games/advancement that he/she desires in the future. If someone thinks that officiating is ONLY about "getting the calls right", then they are not living in the real world of officiating.

Man your games must be long. Do you explain everything you do on the court? I know I don't.

I certainly dont have to explain what I saw and why I ruled. It's something that may need to be done because its a decent thing to do.

Welcome to officiating, where half the gym won't be happy with you at any time. It's life. Live with it. Sometimes, the more crowd is unhappy with me the better job I'm doing.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by deecee

Man your games must be long. Do you explain everything you do on the court? I know I don't.

I certainly dont have to explain what I saw and why I ruled. It's something that may need to be done because its a decent thing to do.

Welcome to officiating, where half the gym won't be happy with you at any time. It's life. Live with it. Sometimes, the more crowd is unhappy with me the better job I'm doing.

I knew this was going to happen……for crying out loud! READ THE FIRST THREE WORDS of the sentence from my post that caused you to react as you did above….

In certain situations (like the one described in the OP), you will need to explain/discuss with people what you saw and why you ruled the way you did.

It is absolutely amazing how some people blatantly ignore information in order to "prove their point". This is the equivalent of ignoring the push that caused the dribbler to travel…and calling the travel. You have every right to call the travel (or purposely ignore comments made by others to make your point)…it's just that you're wrong when you do.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

if you whack the best player on a team and throw him out in ANY game - let alone a playoff game, you better provide the coach w/ an explanation. to do otherwise would simply be a complete lack of officiating common sense and game management.

Like I said before, if I think the coach might not have heard the kid's comments, I'll give him a quick recap.

The OP, however, is told from the perspective of someone in the stands. There's a good chance that in that case, I'm going to be confident that the coach heard every word. * I'm not going to give him a recap in that case, because if he heard the comments and still needs an explanation, he doesn't really want an explanation. That conversation is likely to end with the coach saying something stupid, like "Well, you should have called a foul."

If there's any doubt, I'd start by asking, "Coach, did you hear what he said?"

If he says anything but, "no," then see above *.

And I'm giving the coach the same consideration whether it's his best player or his last kid on the bench.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by deecee

Why should my tolerance change?

The more I thought about this thread, I started thinking this more and more. If the teams have championships coming up, they need to not do and say things that could get them suspended.

I've also thought about this over the years. Most (all?) states have some mandatory suspension for unsportsmanlike conduct. But, how many officials are hesitant to call conduct unsporting because it "didn't rise to the level that warrants a suspension." Sometimes I wonder if we would call things more often if there wasn't an automatic penalty beyond the contest that we are assigned to.

Somebody the other day pointed to NBA officials not being afraid to call technicals or even ejections for unsporting behavior. They know that if the conduct deserves additional penalties, the league will fine or suspend the players involved. Their job is to take care of the game in front of them, not worry about other ramifications.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Altor

The more I thought about this thread, I started thinking this more and more. If the teams have championships coming up, they need to not do and say things that could get them suspended.

I've also thought about this over the years. Most (all?) states have some mandatory suspension for unsportsmanlike conduct. But, how many officials are hesitant to call conduct unsporting because it "didn't rise to the level that warrants a suspension." Sometimes I wonder if we would call things more often if there wasn't an automatic penalty beyond the contest that we are assigned to.

Somebody the other day pointed to NBA officials not being afraid to call technicals or even ejections for unsporting behavior. They know that if the conduct deserves additional penalties, the league will fine or suspend the players involved. Their job is to take care of the game in front of them, not worry about other ramifications.

They also know if they fail to take care of business, they'll lose their jobs.

[Rich]

If anyone reads the first post and even considers letting the kid remain in the game, you really need to calibrate your meter or get out of HS officiating.