Foul Ruling?

[Maineac]

This was not my play and I was not there to witness it. This is how it was described to me by an official who was there. A1, attempting a 3 point FG from the wing, is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. As A1 falls to the floor, he grabs the arm of B1 and pulls B1 down on top of himself. This grabbing and pulling of B1 was not judged to be accidental. I'm interested to see how this play would be ruled by forum members.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Maineac

... he grabs the arm of B1 and pulls B1 down on top of himself.

I'd tell them to get a room.

[Nevadaref]

Probably a double personal foul is in order.

[Maineac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Probably a double personal foul is in order.

Which is exactly what was called. I was just curious if others would have had different rulings, since it isn't a play I see every game.

[twocentsworth]

Common foul…followed by intentional foul.

The first foul was a normal " basketball play". The second was a deliberate, non-basketball act that was intentional and excessive.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Common foul…followed by intentional foul.

The first foul was a normal " basketball play". The second was a deliberate, non-basketball act that was intentional and excessive.

Going to go with a false double, then?

I think they're close enough to the same time to consider it a double foul.

No shots for either player.

POI. a) AP if shot is missed, b) B ball along endline if shot is made.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Common foul…followed by intentional foul.

The first foul was a normal " basketball play". The second was a deliberate, non-basketball act that was intentional and excessive.

Possibly. BUT... if the foul on the shot caused the player to fall, and while falling, he reaches and grabs, I think a lot of times that's a "Oh I'm falling, let me grab something," situation, rather than a "Alright, A-hole, you're gonna foul me, then I'm bringing you down with me!" situation. If it is the former, then I don't think that the "intentional and excessive" part is true, and if I'm able to go double, then I would. Now all that being said, if it is clearly two separate acts, and you deem it cannot be called double, then I suppose you HAVE to go with intentional, as you can't have a common foul after the ball has become dead.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Common foul…followed by intentional foul.

The first foul was a normal " basketball play". The second was a deliberate, non-basketball act that was intentional and excessive.

I wasn't there to judge this, but if this was indeed the case, I think both fouls occurred close enough together where they would be considered to have happened "at approximately the same time" for purposes of deeming this a double personal foul.

So....it got me to thinking about the penalty sequence because I believed it was different between NFHS and NCAA.

Looked up NFHS. See 10-6 PENALTIES 1c + NOTE, and the note says, "If one or both fouls of a double foul are flagrant*, no free throws are awarded..."

* Very interested that this doesn't read, "If one or both fouls of a double foul are intentional or flagrant, no free throws are awarded..." Certainly one can assume that if a single flagrant doesn't warrant FTs, an intentional shouldn't, either. But why would the NFHS leave the reader to interpret that? Hmmmm.

Looked up NCAAM & NCAAW. See 10-1 PENALTY f. I'll summarize: In NCAA, because one of the personal fouls is flagrant (Flagrant 1), you'd shoot both sets of FTs, i.e. first the 3 (or 1) for the three pointer, then the two for the F1 at the other end, and then B gets the ball at the spot nearest the foul (POI).

[Hawkeyes]

Originally Posted by Maineac

This was not my play and I was not there to witness it. This is how it was described to me by an official who was there. A1, attempting a 3 point FG from the wing, is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. As A1 falls to the floor, he grabs the arm of B1 and pulls B1 down on top of himself. This grabbing and pulling of B1 was not judged to be accidental. I'm interested to see how this play would be ruled by forum members.

6.7.4 doesn't matter if intentional or unintentional...

False Double foul. Doesn't matter if the ball goes in or not. Second foul by A1 was a player control and caused ball to become dead. Wipe the basket anyway! A1 gets 3 throws, with lane space cleared; because the ball goes to POI and is awarded to Team B.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Hawkeyes

6.7.4 doesn't matter if intentional or unintentional...

Double foul indeed! Doesn't matter if the ball goes in or not. Second foul by A1 was a player control and caused ball to become dead. Wipe the basket anyway! A1 gets 3 throws, with lane space cleared; because the ball goes to POI and is awarded to Team B.

If it's a double foul, then it's not a player control. Basket counts, no free throws.

POI depends on whether the basket goes in. If it does, B gets the ball for an end line throw in. If it does not go in, you go to the arrow at the spot nearest the double foul.

10-6 penalty 1c, "No free throws: for double personal or technical fouls (point of interruption).

[Hawkeyes]

I'm sorry - this is a false double foul (4-11; 4-19-6; 4-19-9)
I stand corrected - good catch.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Hawkeyes

I'm sorry - this is a false double foul (4-11; 4-19-6; 4-19-9)
I stand corrected - good catch.

I actually think it's a double foul, as they are "at approximately the same time."

I don't think this is all that clear cut, though, so I know a few are going to get a different answer.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Hawkeyes

I'm sorry - this is a false double foul (4-11; 4-19-6; 4-19-9)
I stand corrected - good catch.

No need. I think it could be ruled either a double or a false double as "approximately" is rather vague. It really depends. I could argue either one.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Hawkeyes

6.7.4 doesn't matter if intentional or unintentional...

False Double foul. Doesn't matter if the ball goes in or not. Second foul by A1 was a player control and caused ball to become dead. Wipe the basket anyway! A1 gets 3 throws, with lane space cleared; because the ball goes to POI and is awarded to Team B.

If you decide to rule this a false double foul instead of just a double foul, the shooter's foul still would not be a PC foul as we have been informed that the player returned to the floor before fouling his opponent. Therefore, he is no longer an airborne shooter.

[Hawkeyes]

"Returned to the floor" is open to interpretation isn't it? What if a player shoots a set shot (not leaving the floor at all)?
If "airborne shooter" really only applied to literally being in the air - most girls below the collegiate level wouldn't get many FT's for "jump shots" on that dreaded illegal block-out.
Unless we are forced to go to a monitor in high school - that foul by the shooter seems to create the very confusing false double foul:
Live ball, fouls by both teams, before the clock is started following the first.