Foul Ruling?

[Maineac]

This was not my play and I was not there to witness it. This is how it was described to me by an official who was there. A1, attempting a 3 point FG from the wing, is fouled in the act of shooting by B1. As A1 falls to the floor, he grabs the arm of B1 and pulls B1 down on top of himself. This grabbing and pulling of B1 was not judged to be accidental. I'm interested to see how this play would be ruled by forum members.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Maineac

... he grabs the arm of B1 and pulls B1 down on top of himself.

I'd tell them to get a room.

[Nevadaref]

Probably a double personal foul is in order.

[Maineac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Probably a double personal foul is in order.

Which is exactly what was called. I was just curious if others would have had different rulings, since it isn't a play I see every game.

[twocentsworth]

Common foul…followed by intentional foul.

The first foul was a normal " basketball play". The second was a deliberate, non-basketball act that was intentional and excessive.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Common foul…followed by intentional foul.

The first foul was a normal " basketball play". The second was a deliberate, non-basketball act that was intentional and excessive.

Going to go with a false double, then?

I think they're close enough to the same time to consider it a double foul.

No shots for either player.

POI. a) AP if shot is missed, b) B ball along endline if shot is made.

[Maineac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Going to go with a false double, then?

I think they're close enough to the same time to consider it a double foul.

No shots for either player.

POI. a) AP if shot is missed, b) B ball along endline if shot is made.

I forgot to mention, it was option a), shot was missed. Arrow went to team B. I'll pass this along to the official who made the ruling, he took a lot of crap for it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Maineac

I forgot to mention, it was option a), shot was missed. Arrow went to team B. I'll pass this along to the official who made the ruling, he took a lot of crap for it.

From whom? Other officials? Fans? Coaches?

[Raymond]

Had A1 landed when he pulled down B1 or was he still airborne?

[Maineac]

Originally Posted by Adam

From whom? Other officials? Fans? Coaches?

No, not other officials. The usuals.

[Maineac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Had A1 landed when he pulled down B1 or was he still airborne?

My understanding is that he had landed, and pulled him down as he was going to the ground.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Common foul…followed by intentional foul.

The first foul was a normal " basketball play". The second was a deliberate, non-basketball act that was intentional and excessive.

Possibly. BUT... if the foul on the shot caused the player to fall, and while falling, he reaches and grabs, I think a lot of times that's a "Oh I'm falling, let me grab something," situation, rather than a "Alright, A-hole, you're gonna foul me, then I'm bringing you down with me!" situation. If it is the former, then I don't think that the "intentional and excessive" part is true, and if I'm able to go double, then I would. Now all that being said, if it is clearly two separate acts, and you deem it cannot be called double, then I suppose you HAVE to go with intentional, as you can't have a common foul after the ball has become dead.

[frezer11]

In this same context of a foul followed by another, What if on a drive A1 is clearly pushed (but not intentional) by B1 off his unobstructed, intended path, and directly into B2, who is in LGP, and we have a decent size crash. My guess is that most officials would only have one foul here, ruling that the contact by B1 caused A2 to crash in to B2, and therefore ignore the PC foul.

So in the OP, if, say, the foul was an early box out type, and the shooter took a butt to the gut, and his arms naturally dropped as a result of this over the defender's shoulders and chest, and this caused the defender to fall to the ground, would it change anyone's thought process of double foul? I realize my comparison is not the same, but I'm wondering if the reasoning of a foul directly causing another foul would have an influence?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Common foul…followed by intentional foul.

The first foul was a normal " basketball play". The second was a deliberate, non-basketball act that was intentional and excessive.

I wasn't there to judge this, but if this was indeed the case, I think both fouls occurred close enough together where they would be considered to have happened "at approximately the same time" for purposes of deeming this a double personal foul.

So....it got me to thinking about the penalty sequence because I believed it was different between NFHS and NCAA.

Looked up NFHS. See 10-6 PENALTIES 1c + NOTE, and the note says, "If one or both fouls of a double foul are flagrant*, no free throws are awarded..."

* Very interested that this doesn't read, "If one or both fouls of a double foul are intentional or flagrant, no free throws are awarded..." Certainly one can assume that if a single flagrant doesn't warrant FTs, an intentional shouldn't, either. But why would the NFHS leave the reader to interpret that? Hmmmm.

Looked up NCAAM & NCAAW. See 10-1 PENALTY f. I'll summarize: In NCAA, because one of the personal fouls is flagrant (Flagrant 1), you'd shoot both sets of FTs, i.e. first the 3 (or 1) for the three pointer, then the two for the F1 at the other end, and then B gets the ball at the spot nearest the foul (POI).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by frezer11

Possibly. BUT... if the foul on the shot caused the player to fall, and while falling, he reaches and grabs, I think a lot of times that's a "Oh I'm falling, let me grab something," situation, rather than a "Alright, A-hole, you're gonna foul me, then I'm bringing you down with me!" situation. If it is the former, then I don't think that the "intentional and excessive" part is true, and if I'm able to go double, then I would. Now all that being said, if it is clearly two separate acts, and you deem it cannot be called double, then I suppose you HAVE to go with intentional, as you can't have a common foul after the ball has become dead.

1. If the ball is dead, you need to go with an intentional technical foul.

2. The ball isn't necessarily dead, and in most cases if the players are still falling, it is not dead.

If this is a double foul (I think it likely is), and if the shooter's is deemed to be intentional, you've still got no shots and POI.