Correctable Error: Incorrect Information by the Game Official.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Your argument is tantamount to saying that one mistake justifies another. That is flawed logic and cannot be correct.

The truth is that mistakenly awarding an improper number of FTs is still an error, even if the official believes that he is doing so correctly.

One mistake does not justify another. But one mistake often leads to another.
There are any number of reason why the basket may not have counted in the OP. (the foul was before the try...traveling after the foul, etc.) Any one of them could have been a mistake. The failure to signal the basket good and put it on the board is no different than any other mistake.


TWO SHOTS

[JeffM]

The C and the T botched the play by not observing and communicating that the basket was good.

Score the basket on the initial field goal.

The first (of one) free throw was missed with neither team rebounding like they normally would. So, go to the AP.

Both coaches may be upset with the officiating crew. That said, any of the coaches, assistant coaches, table personnel could have seen that the reporting official incorrectly did not count the basket and signaled for two shots.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No matter how many players try/don't try to rebound, if the official didn't count the basket and announced two shots, this is a free throw which is to be followed by another free throw. When it comes off the rim, this ball is dead.

That is certainly the general rule but when errors are involved you need the whistle to tell you what to do and what you can do. Ex. A1 fouled in act. awarded 2 FT. One shot and missed. all forget a second shot due. B rebounds, goes down and scores. Then whistle blown, error recognized. It is correctable but we know the basket by B is not cancelled. Points scored before it recognized count. If A would have inbounded the ball after B basket the error wouldnt be correctable at all. B basket counts and A doesnt get its other free throw. All of this even though a free throw to be followed by another was missed. The whistle matters.

In the Op the whistle is blown at a time when the error of not counting the basket is still correctable. At the time the referee announced two shots he was correct. no goal had been scored. But once correction made, now it is counted. Turns out only one free throw was merited. It was shot but only one team attempted to rebound. Go to case play as nevada and mtd say.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

That is certainly the general rule but when errors are involved you need the whistle to tell you what to do and what you can do. Ex. A1 fouled in act. awarded 2 FT. One shot and missed. all forget a second shot due. B rebounds, goes down and scores. Then whistle blown, error recognized. It is correctable but we know the basket by B is not cancelled. Points scored before it recognized count. If A would have inbounded the ball after B basket the error wouldnt be correctable at all. B basket counts and A doesnt get its other free throw. All of this even though a free throw to be followed by another was missed. The whistle matters.

What you describe is failure to award a merited free throw. This has nothing to do with the OP. In the OP, a player mistakenly grabbed a dead ball and put it in the basket. At this point the officials stopped the action and rectified the situation, though in my opinion more mistakes were made at this point.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What you describe is failure to award a merited free throw. This has nothing to do with the OP. In the OP, a player mistakenly grabbed a dead ball and put it in the basket. At this point the officials stopped the action and rectified the situation, though in my opinion more mistakes were made at this point.

Yes, that is what I described. Only to make the point that while the ball is supposed to be dead on a missed free throw when one is to follow, and the rule actually says that it is, it really isnt if the officials screw up and allow play to continue. I read one of your posts to mean once the first free throw was missed, nothing else that happened after that counted cause ball dead...or supposed to be.

There were a lot of mistakes that's for sure. Correctable errors are bad....

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Yes, that is what I described. Only to make the point that while the ball is supposed to be dead on a missed free throw when one is to follow, and the rule actually says that it is, it really isnt if the officials screw up and allow play to continue. I read one of your posts to mean once the first free throw was missed, nothing else that happened after that counted cause ball dead...or supposed to be.

If the officials allow play to continue, that's different. In the OP, that didn't happen.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If the officials allow play to continue, that's different. In the OP, that didn't happen.

You have brought up and shown the dilemma in these situations. As you know, the ball is dead when we are certain the try will be missed. Ref didnt blow whistle then. Ball rebounded by A2, no whistle. Ball shot in basket. Then whistle. What is letting "play continue?" How much "play" is that? Is it "play" when only one team moves? In the Op, what if the ball is quickly inbounded by B1 after A2's quick rebound and goal and clock had started? Now it would be too late to correct the error of not counting the original goal? But nobody but A2 attempted to rebound...

In this OP, the rules could consider the rebound and put back "play." The game is stopped in time to correct the original error of not counting the goal. score that basket. Now it turns out that A1 is only entitled to the one free throw he just shot. Under regular CE rules you would also score the put back by A2 because points scored before recognizing the failure to count basket/error count. (the referees counted A2 put back, i think) But the administering official told them 2 shots...he was right when he said it but it ended up wrong and team B was prejudiced by it. they didnt rebound. The case play prevents all this from happening. As Nevada pointed out yesterday. Cancel A2 goal and go to arrow.

When it happens quick like this and only one team rebounds and you stop it, I think you can say it really isnt "play" and get to the same place. fix error and go to arrow. But, if both teams would have attempted to rebound, A2 gets it and scores, I believe that would clearly be "play." When the game is stopped you would count the original field goal. Count A2 put back and B gets end line throw in.
Moral in this mess. Pay attention...always....

[Adam]

Do you normally blow the whistle when one player steps in and grabs the ball off a missed FT when more are to follow? I don't. Pretty sure none of us would do anything until he threw the ball through the hoop.

Waive it off, the ball was dead, go AP. We are completely overthinking this thing.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Adam

Do you normally blow the whistle when one player steps in and grabs the ball off a missed FT when more are to follow?

If I'm L:

If s/he's "just catching the ball", then no -- but I usually get in there first.

If s/he's "rebounding" the ball, then I'm talking to him/her as it's happening and as I'm walking in (and trying not to get hit).

If I'm T or C, in the second part above, then I do blow the whistle.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

Do you normally blow the whistle when one player steps in and grabs the ball off a missed FT when more are to follow? I don't. Pretty sure none of us would do anything until he threw the ball through the hoop.

Waive it off, the ball was dead, go AP. We are completely overthinking this thing.

Well, let me first say that, thankfully, when I say there are more to follow…there usually are…..

When no one reacts like this accept the one player you can get the right result pretty easily. But, the statement was made that it would not matter how many players tried to rebound the ball because the ball was dead the moment it was missed. When you are dealing with errors/ommisisons that isn't necessarily true.

If everybody tries to rebound this missed FT, A2 gets it, puts it back in, then referee puts a whistle on it and figures out they didn't count the original score, it is still correctable. The put back basket by A2 counts and B gets throw in on end line. you would not under the rules waive off that basket and go to the arrow.
Correctable errors do make me over think. I won't argue that...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

But, the statement was made that it would not matter how many players tried to rebound the ball because the ball was dead the moment it was missed. When you are dealing with errors/ommisisons that isn't necessarily true.

If no basket was scored and two free throws are announced, I'll say it again. As soon as the shot is missed, the ball is dead.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If no basket was scored and two free throws are announced, I'll say it again. As soon as the shot is missed, the ball is dead.

If everyone knows better than the officials, and they all attempt to rebound, then the basket would count. I'll assume the officials would have hit the whistle at this point and made sure the previous basket was scored.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

If everyone knows better than the officials, and they all attempt to rebound, then the basket would count. I'll assume the officials would have hit the whistle at this point and made sure the previous basket was scored.

Everyone knows the basket should have counted AND it should have only been one shot? I can't swallow both of those things at once. Even if everybody goes after the rebound and A2 makes a quick put back followed by the whistle, it doesn't count. "The whistle doesn't usually cause the ball to become dead. It was already dead."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Everyone knows the basket should have counted AND it should have only been one shot? I can't swallow both of those things at once. Even if everybody goes after the rebound and A2 makes a quick put back followed by the whistle, it doesn't count. "The whistle doesn't usually cause the ball to become dead. It was already dead."

8.6.1C (quoted above) seems pretty clear to me on this issue. I don't see how the previous CE (the failure to credit a score) impacts the validity of this ruling.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

8.6.1C (quoted above) seems pretty clear to me on this issue. I don't see how the previous CE (the failure to credit a score) impacts the validity of this ruling.

The failure to credit the score is the error. If there was no basket, two free throws is not an error, correctable or otherwise.