Game Over and Correctable Error?

[jgg]

The following situation happened in an AAU tournament game today. I've read the rule book on this and I am still a little confused as to whether the rules were correctly applied. Your educated interpretations would be much appreciated.

The score is 48-46 with 8 seconds left. A player on the losing team drives to the basket and a shooting foul is called. A technical foul is also immediately assessed on the player who committed the foul for something said to the official after the foul was called.

One second is left on the clock.

4 free throws are shot, of which 3 are made giving the team that was losing a 49-48 lead. The ball is inbounded on the technical and the game ends with the team getting a 1 point come from behind win as a result.

The teams shake hands, gather their gear and leave the court.

The officials go to their between games rest area which is courtside behind the scorer's table. The losing coach is in their ear griping about the assessment of the game ending technical.

At some point during his discussion with them, someone discovers that the wrong player shot the free throws for the foul. That is, the player who was fouled did not shoot, another player who was chosen to shoot the technical free throws ended up shooting all 4 by mistake.

After much heated discussion, it is ruled a correctable error. The players are brought back onto the floor.

It is also ruled that all 4 free throws had to be reshot and the last second of the game replayed.

On the replay, only 1 of the 4 free throws was made. A desperation shot on the last second play fell short and the team that initially won the game, was now the loser.

The losing team argued that the rules were applied incorrectly twice.

First, that the error was no longer correctable since the game was over, players had shaken hands and left the court, and technically the officials had left the court also since they were in their between games rest area. The teams playing in the next game were already warming up.

Second, that the only thing that should have been correctable was having the correct player re-shoot the free throws for the foul. They argued that points scored after the recognition of the error should have counted. In that case, the second pair of made free throws should have counted as the technical free throws. If this had been the case, then the score would have been tied at 48-48 and they would be shooting to make 1 of 2 for the win.

Did their argument have merit or were the rules applied correctly?

Thanks,

gg

[Dan_ref]

Heh. AAU. Love it.

First, the technical foul free throws can be taken by any player, so no need to re-do those. Whatever the result were from the original technical foul free throws just stand.

Second, the rules state that the game is done when the officials leave the visual confines of play. I don't know where your officials were when they changed their minds but if that was my game no way no how we would have re-shot the free throws for the non-techinical foul.

IOW, they f'ed it up. Armed with this information it's up to you to just move on to the next AAU event.

[Adam]

Rules were not applied correctly. These games really stink for determining whether the officials have left the court. Since they hadn't left the confines of the court, you can make a plausible argument that their jurisdiction for that game hadn't yet ended. However, since the next teams had taken the court for warm-ups, I'd argue the jurisdiction is over for the previous game as the jurisdiction has now begun for the next game.

Secondly, if they're going to correct it, you can only re-shoot the shots that were given to the wrong player. In this case, I'd disallow the first two shots and keep the 2nd two, no matter how those were made. Re-shoot the first two with the correct shooter. In this case, the correct shooter would have shot the free throws with the score tied.

Edited to add: What Dan said.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by jgg

The following situation happened in an AAU tournament game today. I've read the rule book on this and I am still a little confused as to whether the rules were correctly applied. Your educated interpretations would be much appreciated.

The score is 48-46 with 8 seconds left. A player on the losing team drives to the basket and a shooting foul is called. A technical foul is also immediately assessed on the player who committed the foul for something said to the official after the foul was called.

One second is left on the clock.

4 free throws are shot, of which 3 are made giving the team that was losing a 49-48 lead. The ball is inbounded on the technical and the game ends with the team getting a 1 point come from behind win as a result.

The teams shake hands, gather their gear and leave the court.

The officials go to their between games rest area which is courtside behind the scorer's table. The losing coach is in their ear griping about the assessment of the game ending technical.

At some point during his discussion with them, someone discovers that the wrong player shot the free throws for the foul. That is, the player who was fouled did not shoot, another player who was chosen to shoot the technical free throws ended up shooting all 4 by mistake.

After much heated discussion, it is ruled a correctable error. The players are brought back onto the floor.

It is also ruled that all 4 free throws had to be reshot and the last second of the game replayed.

On the replay, only 1 of the 4 free throws was made. A desperation shot on the last second play fell short and the team that initially won the game, was now the loser.

The losing team argued that the rules were applied incorrectly twice.

First, that the error was no longer correctable since the game was over, players had shaken hands and left the court, and technically the officials had left the court also since they were in their between games rest area. The teams playing in the next game were already warming up.

Second, that the only thing that should have been correctable was having the correct player re-shoot the free throws for the foul. They argued that points scored after the recognition of the error should have counted. In that case, the second pair of made free throws should have counted as the technical free throws. If this had been the case, then the score would have been tied at 48-48 and they would be shooting to make 1 of 2 for the win.

Did their argument have merit or were the rules applied correctly?

Thanks,

gg

Wow!! What a mess!!

First, who provide the information that the wrong player shot the FT's?

Second, once the officials left the court the final score was approved game over.

Third, let just say that the error was notice before all of the other mess. The officials should have canceled the unmerited FT's and had the right player entitle to the FT's shoot'em.

The FT's for the technical would have stood no matter what. After that game over.

Now, with all this entertainment going on.

Did the officials get together to communicate what happen and how to administer properly?

[jgg]

Heh, live and learn, right? I just want to make sure I understand the rules correctly and the NFHS rule book seems a bit ambiguous with regard to end of game. End of game is not specifically addressed in 2-10 correctable errors.

The officials never left the visual confines of the gym. At these tournaments, they are usually doing back to back games so they have a rest area set aside for them somewhere near the court.

The argument for reshooting all 4 free throws was that the free throws were applied in the incorrect order...the technical free throws were shot first followed by the foul shots. Made no sense to me since the same player shot all 4. What difference did it really make?

Thanks for the response!

[jgg]

Originally Posted by truerookie

First, who provide the information that the wrong player shot the FT's?

That I don't know. I think either a parent or another coach brought it to the opposing coach's attention after he argued with the refs post game.

Did the officials get together to communicate what happen and how to administer properly?

Yes, eventually they did but as you can imagine at an AAU game it was chaotic. Everybody and their brother had an opinion. The officials did finally pull away and huddle together before making their ruling. At least if they were going to be wrong they were unified.

[jgg]

The other thing that sucked about this situation was that the kids stood around for 5 to 10 minutes waiting on the ruling. When they were forced to reshoot the free throws they had no opportunity to warm up.

[BillyMac]

NFHS Rule 2-2-4: The jurisdiction of the officials' is terminated and the final score has been approved when all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area.

The site director must define what the visual confines of the court are. If you're doing four games on that court, and you never leave the visual confines of the court, does that mean that a corrrectable error can be corrected after the third game for a correctable error that occurred in the first game?

This isn't a NFHS problem. This is an AAU problem.

[26 Year Gap]

Funny how the coach was not hollering "The wrong guy is shooting!" when the FTs were being shot and none of the players were saying anything either. The down side of AAU is you do multiple games. I assessed a T on some kid in my first game for saying, "We need better officiating". They lost by 30. After the coach comes and asks about the T so I told him. He claims the kid said something else. Right. Maybe he said they need better coaching. Most of the time there are very few issues at AAU games, but remember that fanboy parents operate the clocks, keep score and coach at AAU.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jgg

The officials never left the visual confines of the gym. At these tournaments, they are usually doing back to back games so they have a rest area set aside for them somewhere near the court.

Once the teams for the next game start warming up, no way in Hell I'm reshooting anything. Since officials aren't leaving the court (common in AAU ball), there has to be an arbitrary cutoff somewhere. I'd say it's when the clock starts ticking down for the next game's warmups. That'll take at least as long as it would normally take me to run off the court post-game.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS Rule 2-2-4: The jurisdiction of the officials' is terminated and the final score has been approved when all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area.

The site director must define what the visual confines of the court are. If you're doing four games on that court, and you never leave the visual confines of the court, does that mean that a corrrectable error can be corrected after the third game for a correctable error that occurred in the first game?

This isn't a NFHS problem. This is an AAU problem.

Agreed. In these situations most offficials will walk by the table to see if there are any issues before the next games starts. If the people at the table does not say anything. Once, I go to my rest area to wait for the next game.

[truerookie]

[quote=jgg]The argument for reshooting all 4 free throws was that the free throws were applied in the incorrect order...the technical free throws were shot first followed by the foul shots. Made no sense to me since the same player shot all 4. What difference did it really make?


You would really like for the FT's to be shot in the right order. However, if for some reason that does not happen. As long as, the FT's were shot and the right shooter/ team shoots them. The ball will still be put in play at halfcourt because of the technical.

[jgg]

Originally Posted by truerookie

You would really like for the FT's to be shot in the right order. However, if for some reason that does not happen. As long as, the FT's were shot and the right shooter/ team shoots them. The ball will still be put in play at halfcourt because of the technical.

The issue is the same player shot all 4 free throws. IMHO, what should have happened is the first two free throws representing the personal foul should have been disqualified and one point removed.

The second set of free throws, representing the technical, should have been allowed to stand since any player is eligible to shoot those, and they were therefore points scored legally that should stand by NFHS 2-10-5 - "Points scored, consumed time and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified".

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jgg

IMHO, what should have happened is the first two free throws representing the personal foul should have been disqualified and one point removed.

There is no provision for disqualifying the free throws. If caught in time, the error is corrected. If not, the free throws stand. If the wrong player taking the free throws is ruled to be a deliberate act of deception, a technical foul can be assessed.

[jgg]

Originally Posted by just another ref

There is no provision for disqualifying the free throws. If caught in time, the error is corrected. If not, the free throws stand. If the wrong player taking the free throws is ruled to be a deliberate act of deception, a technical foul can be assessed.

If you correct the error, you are in effect, disqualifying the free throws shot by the incorrect player.