Michigan State/Nebraska Flagrant 2 (Video)

[bballref3966]

16:17 first half ESPN. Easy call after review-intentional elbow to the head.

[pfan1981]

I thought college men's was POI and not half court for the throw in. I am just a lowly high school official........

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by pfan1981

I thought college men's was POI and not half court for the throw in. I am just a lowly high school official........

I didn't see the play, but it's not if the ball is live. Live ball = Flagrant 2 Personal, which is basically assessed the same as a Flagrant Personal in NFHS: fouler is disqualified, two shots to the offended player, ball at spot nearest the foul to the offended team.

If the ball was dead, it's a Flagrant 2 Technical. Fouler is disqualified (and I believe ejected?), two shots to the team member of the coach's choosing, and ball to the offended team at the division line on either side of the table. The same result applies to a contact dead ball technical except without the disqualification. Most other NCAA technical foul penalties do use the POI, but not these two more serious infractions.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by bballref3966

16:17 first half ESPN. Easy call after review-intentional elbow to the head.

The officials took way too long at the monitor. I'm also just a lowly high school official but I could see it the first time that it should be an ejection. I love watchESPN app.

[crosscountry55]

I found a Vine clip of the play. Look how Pitchford turns his head left toward the endline right before the elbow. I'm pretty sure he was looking to see if an official was there. Didn't see one, and then he winds up.

Completely classless. Very warranted ejection.

I could only see what I think was the C near side in the clip. Looked like he was coming down from T and wasn't looking through the lane when the elbow flew. I didn't see the L, so either he was still rotating or the crew was out of position.

[RefCT]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I found a Vine clip of the play. Look how Pitchford turns his head left toward the endline right before the elbow. I'm pretty sure he was looking to see if an official was there. Didn't see one, and then he winds up.

Completely classless. Very warranted ejection.

I could only see what I think was the C near side in the clip. Looked like he was coming down from T and wasn't looking through the lane when the elbow flew. I didn't see the L, so either he was still rotating or the crew was out of position.

Find a longer clip. L was on he play and had a foul when it happened. Hypothesis was the Indiana player was looking back at the L hoping for a team-control foul on the big guy. When he didn't get it, he threw the elbow. L called it right away.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by RefCT

Find a longer clip. L was on he play and had a foul when it happened. Hypothesis was the Indiana player was looking back at the L hoping for a team-control foul on the big guy. When he didn't get it, he threw the elbow. L called it right away.

Ok. Yeah, the Vine clip was a pretty narrow frame. That hypothesis makes more sense. It also makes Pitchford's foul more stupid.

[APG]

I've got a flagrant 1. The reason the player turns his head is cuz his arm is being locked and he's wondering why the hell the official is not seeing it. I think his subsequent action warrants a flagrant 1 because I believe the contact is a result of trying to get his arm loose, not a premeditated action. And yes I know those words are not found in the F2 language. If you want to go F2 then eject the offensive player too for initiating an action which lead to 'fighting'.

[APG]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I've got a flagrant 1. The reason the player turns his head is cuz his arm is being locked and he's wondering why the hell the official is not seeing it. I think his subsequent action warrants a flagrant 1 because I believe the contact is a result of trying to get his arm loose, not a premeditated action. And yes I know those words are not found in the F2 language. If you want to go F2 then eject the offensive player too for initiating an action which lead to 'fighting'.

There is absolutely no way that the offensive player gets an F2 on this play. At best, his actions rise to the level of common foul. There is no rule set that will eject a player for committing a common foul and having the opponent react with an ejectionable action.

[bballref3966]

The subsequent throw-in should have been on the endline, nearest to where the foul occurred as this was a personal foul, not a technical foul. That was a brain fart for the crew.

But that's an easy flagrant 2.

Originally Posted by APG

There is absolutely no way that the offensive player gets an F2 on this play. At best, his actions rise to the level of common foul. There is no rule set that will eject a player for committing a common foul and having the opponent react with an ejectionable action.

I agree with you, just trying to emphasize my point that I would go F1 here. Although I have seen officials apply NCAA 10-5-4 to this situation in the past...

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by APG

There is absolutely no way that the offensive player gets an F2 on this play. At best, his actions rise to the level of common foul. There is no rule set that will eject a player for committing a common foul and having the opponent react with an ejectionable action.

Absolutely. And no way this is F1. Arm lock or not, called or not, that wind up and connection was savage and violent. Positively F2. If anything I think we as officials are always looking for certainty in the level of penalty, which is why, especially with monitor reviews, we tend to err on the side of the lesser penalty if we're not sure. Suffice to say the crew was sure on this one.

Originally Posted by bballref3966

The subsequent throw-in should have been on the endline, nearest to where the foul occurred as this was a personal foul, not a technical foul. That was a brain fart for the crew.

Yeah, but a big one. An inbound in that situation right under the basket gives a big and intended advantage to MSU as part of the penalty. You just can't brain fart there. That's too bad they made that mistake.