Elbow contact

[jeremy341a]

POE was moving elbow contact above the shoulder is min of intentional foul. My state has followed this. Last night H1 secures rebound. V1 is behind him and bent over in a defensive stance trying to reach around and poke ball out. There is not contact from V1. H1 has no clue he is there and while bent at the waist pivots while moving the ball to to by his right hip. This makes his right elbow go behind him and makes elbow contact with V1 player's mouth. The elbow is roughly a few inches higher than the H1 kids waist at the moment of contact. It wasn’t a huge elbow but it wasn't a slight tap either. Call?

[bob jenkins]

IPF.

Many questions were asked about this type of "unfair" situation here, and the questions were all answered with "Was it an elbow above the shoulders (of the defender)?"

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

IPF.

Many questions were asked about this type of "unfair" situation here, and the questions were all answered with "Was it an elbow above the shoulders (of the defender)?"

Yeah, I think this ship sailed a couple of years ago. Onus is on the ball handler to be aware of where his/her elbows are going. Might seem unfair but it's a safety/concussion issue.

Fortunately it's just another personal foul for the offender. The only difference is that the team aspect of the penalty is a little more (2 shots to offended player + ball at spot nearest foul).

[bainsey]

Generally speaking, where do you folks draw the line between intentional and flagrant on these elbows to the head?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Generally speaking, where do you folks draw the line between intentional and flagrant on these elbows to the head?

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description 'porn,' and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it...."
-Justice Potter Stewart, SCOTUS, Jacobellis v. Ohio, 1964

[La Rikardo]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Generally speaking, where do you folks draw the line between intentional and flagrant on these elbows to the head?

When deciding between intentional and flagrant in a situation like this, the book definitions give us some great adjectives to aid in the decision-making process. 4-19-3d gives one definition of an intentional foul as "Excessive contact with an opponent..." and 4-19-4 says a flagrant foul may be "a...foul of a violent or savage nature..."

So, if you think the contact is merely excessive, it's an intentional foul. If you think the contact is violent or savage, it should be a flagrant foul and the offender should be disqualified. It's impossible to pass judgment on a play without seeing video, but in OP, it sounds like H1 has excessively contacted an opponent and is thus guilty of an intentional personal foul.

[jTheUmp]

Our association's clinician uses the "when you see flagrant contact, you'll know it" axiom.

For me personally, if it makes me say/think "Oh HELL no", it's flagrant. Hasn't happened yet in a basketball game, thankfully.

[bob jenkins]

there are also some elements of intent, and/or reckless disregard

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Generally speaking, where do you folks draw the line between intentional and flagrant on these elbows to the head?

2012-13 POINTS OF EMPHASIS

2. Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.

a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.

b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.

4-19-4: A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or
savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable
conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not
limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it
involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or
persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

[griblets]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Our association's clinician uses the "when you see flagrant contact, you'll know it" axiom.

For me personally, if it makes me say/think "Oh HELL no", it's flagrant. Hasn't happened yet in a basketball game, thankfully.

That's a great way to describe it. I never had a flagrant personal call in the 6-7 years during my first officiating stint. I had my first flagrant personal call in a men's YMCA league a few months ago, and "Oh HELL no" summarizes my reaction to the play perfectly.

FWIW, the offending player is a friend and my insurance agent!