TO request when you have no timeouts

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Knights_Coach

Yes, sir. I coach at the MS level. And I was told this morning by one of the Assistant Executive Directors, that yes, the MS level is where a lot of new refs go learn and get better. Again, I'm not here to bash. For the most part, I don't have a problem with them. It was the "non-call" but if it wasn't for that I would not known how to read the NFHS Rule Book. This situation has made me more aware of the rules whereas in the past I never looked them up. It has become my Bible haha.

One thing that kind of urks me is, I was told by a ref that I can confide in, if I bring out the NFHS Rule Book during the game, expect to be tossed out of the game. So what good does it do me during a game? I've never seen somebody kicked out of court for bringing a Bible or The Constitution in court...get it court? Haha, thanks

You can bring the Constitution to Court…but don't pull it out to tell the Judge he doesn't know what's in it…unless you have a few hours to kill...

[deecee]

At the middle school level I would toss a coach that rolled the rule book out.

Maybe at the Varsity level I would only give 1 T, and then if he kept going on I would issue #2 (maybe I would toss, I don't know what I would honestly do). But coaches know better than to act that way at the V level.

It's no different then during most games I go up in the rafters and tear down the "sportsmanship" banner that a lot of schools have on how fans, players and coaches are expected to act. Then I would wrap him in it and pull the end really fast so the coach becomes a top spinning all the way to the locker room.

But I digress, errors by officials are magnified way more than errors by players or coaches. If you break a game down I am pretty sure officials err way less than either players or coaches, and absolutely less than if you combine those 2 groups.

[Knights_Coach]

Originally Posted by BigCat

You can bring the Constitution to Court…but don't pull it out to tell the Judge he doesn't know what's in it…unless you have a few hours to kill...

Who's saying that I or anyone is saying the ref didn't know what he was saying? I know they know more than I do as far as the rules go. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't but it would have been just for clarification purposes just like how I confided and some other refs after my game. I just want a better understanding. This is not a hot dog swinging contest. In my example, it was tied w/ seconds left. The other team had 0 TOs but still called TO, it wasn't granted. The tech would have allowed us to hit or miss our FTs but we would have gotten the ball. Let the game end in the teams' hands not at the hands of the refs.

No one is saying coaches & players don't make mistakes. We've made plenty. Refs are trying their hardest. I know I couldn't do it. Not yet anyway. Missing FTs, not boxing out, horrible Defense, etc. The refs didn't lose the game for us. We should have executed better. Again, I'm only here to get clarification, not bash. I have friends that are refs.

[deecee]

Don't think you are here to bash but the fact remains, the only T if you busted the rule book out at that spot would have been on you. In the end the lack of knowledge or skill on an official's part applies to both teams equally. It may just appear that you got the short end of the stick, but the size of the stick is relative.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Knights_Coach

I always thought refs granted the TO, then a tech ie Chris Webber Michigan. Growing up we were always taught, "don't call a TO if you are out, the ref 'will' give you a tech." It was never, he "might" give you a tech. I've been searching for this answer. Here goes the scenario:

During our overtime game. With seconds left in the game, it's tied 52-52, both teams were in the double bonus, the ball is dead, Team A(them) had the possession on the baseline trying to inbound ball & advance down the court. Team B(us) played full court press and almost got a 5 sec count, team A's inbounding player signaled timeout to the referee near him, who was right next to him. He never granted it, shook his head no. Team A inbounded it and it was tipped by Team B toward the half court line, Team A's possession there. I tried to ask the referee why didn't he get a tech because it was clear that he was requesting one. He then told me, he doesn't have to grant him one. All the while Team A drives to the hole and and gets fouled with 0.3 seconds left. Sinks 1, Team A commits a lane violation on the second. We didn't have any timeouts and w/ only 0.3 seconds we rolled the ball but didn't make the shot, end of ball game 52-53. We were the #8 seeded team vs the #1 seeded team.

NFHS 2014-15 Rule 5: Scoring and Timing Regulations, Section 11: Charged Time-Outs, Article 6 says: Time-outs in excess of the allotted number may be requested and shall be granted during regulation playing time or any extra period at the expense of a technical foul for each, as in 10-1-7.
PENALTY: (Section 1) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. (Art. 7) Penalized when discovered.

He should have called it. I would have called it, most of us here would have called it.

[jeremy341a]

1. Protest Procedure (MSHSAA Board Policy): The Board of Directors adopted the following policy, March 1997,
to address protests. The Board acknowledges that mistakes are made by officials in judgment and even
sometimes in misapplication of game rules. However, the decisions rendered by officials at the contest site are
to be final and any further process other than the one outlined below would not truly serve a useful purpose in
the overall scope of high school athletics.
a. Within the procedures established within each individual sport rule code, the head coach must request a
review of an official’s application of a rule through appropriate channels.
b. If, after the review is complete, the coach still believes there has been a misapplication of a rule by a contest
official(s), the coach shall then file a formal verbal protest with the game officials who will then notify the
opposing coach immediately of the protest. A coach shall not protest a decision of judgment.
c. Following this notification of protest, the head coach shall be allowed approximately ten minutes to use
his/her National Federation Rules Book, National Federation Case Book, MSHSAA Rules Meeting
Announcements and/or MSHSAA Sport Manual to locate and show the game official(s) the appropriate rule
reference which clarifies a misapplication of the game rule. If the head coach does not have personal
copies of the above mentioned materials at the game site or the specific rule reference(s) or case book
play(s) cannot be located within the maximum allowable ten minutes, the protest shall automatically be
disallowed and the game shall continue from the point of interruption. If a rule reference(s) or case book
play(s) is found that indicates a misapplication of a rule has occurred, the official’s decision shall be
corrected at that time before any further action occurs, and the contest shall be resumed from the point of
interruption after the correction as provided in the contest rules. When appropriate, the game officials may
assist the head coach in locating appropriate rule and case book references.
d. All protests shall be resolved at the contest site before any further game action occurs.
e. Protests that are not filed in a timely manner by that sport rule code shall be automatically disallowed.
f. The MSHSAA Board of Directors and/or staff shall not review contest protests.
2. Application of Protest Procedure
a. Introduction: Protests rarely occur and the new protest procedure policy is not intended to increase the
frequency of protests. It is however, intended to resolve the protest on site. For this to occur the following
must take place:
i. Coaches and officials must be professional with each other. This should be a non-confrontational
conference.
ii. As stated above, protests involve application of rules only – not judgment calls. (Examples of items
which could be protested: Football – penalizing 5 yards instead of 15 yards; Wrestling – allowing one
minute for injury time instead of two minutes; Softball – allowing only two charged defensive
conferences instead of three.) (Examples of items which could not be protested: Football – pass
interference; Wrestling – stalling; Softball – out or safe calls.)
iii. Get It Right! If the official has made a mistake – admit it, correct it and move on.
Contest officials and the head coach filing the official protest shall notify the MSHSAA Office in writing of any
contest in which an official protest has occurred and the resolution of that protest. The MSHSAA Special Report
Forms shall be used for this purpose.
b. Process
i. Once a head coach has filed a formal verbal protest with the game officials, they shall then notify the
opposing head coach of the protest and the playing field, court, mat, etc. shall be cleared of all
participants and they shall report to their respective team bench areas.
ii. The head coach shall then be allowed approximately ten minutes to locate specific rule references from
the NFHS Rules Book, NFHS Case Book, MSHSAA Rules Meeting Announcements and/or MSHSAA
Sport Manual to substantiate the claim that a misapplication of a game rule has occurred. The game
officials shall also confer among themselves during the period to address the claim of the coach as to
the potential rule misapplication.
iii. If the head coach is able to produce rule evidence from the above mentioned sources to support the
claim of a misapplication of a game rule, the officials shall correct the error as provided in the contest
rules and the contest shall proceed from the point of interruption. If the head coach cannot produce the
evidence, the protest shall be disallowed and the contest shall continue from the point of interruption.
The previously mentioned materials must be immediately available for review at the playing field
sideline, courtside, mat side, etc. (Time shall not be provided to go to a locker room, team bus, coach’s
office, etc.)
3. Once the final decision regarding the protest has been rendered, the game officials shall provide the participants
sufficient opp

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Knights_Coach

Who's saying that I or anyone is saying the ref didn't know what he was saying?

The moment you pull it out on the court to show an official, YOU are saying exactly that.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

The moment you pull it out on the court to show an official

Are we still talking about the rule book?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

The moment you pull it out on the court to show an official, YOU are saying exactly that.

Yep, and to be specific, you're trying to influence the official's call.

[La Rikardo]

Originally Posted by deecee

Don't think you are here to bash but the fact remains, the only T if you busted the rule book out at that spot would have been on you. In the end the lack of knowledge or skill on an official's part applies to both teams equally. It may just appear that you got the short end of the stick, but the size of the stick is relative.

I think this is important to remember in any sport at any level. An imperfection on the part of an official might make during a game is as likely to help one team as it is to hurt them. Officiating is like weather (in outdoor sports) or the condition of the playing surface -- it's a random element in the game that the participants can't control. We as officials work hard to make that element as consistent and as fair as possible, but that will certainly vary with the skill and experience of the official.

[Knights_Coach]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

The moment you pull it out on the court to show an official, YOU are saying exactly that.

Longhorn, you only used a fraction of my post, which makes your post inaccurate and unfair. My full post read:

Who's saying that I or anyone is saying the ref didn't know what he was saying? I know they know more than I do as far as the rules go. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't but it would have been just for clarification purposes just like how I confided and some other refs after my game. I just want a better understanding. This is not a hot dog swinging contest. In my example, it was tied w/ seconds left. The other team had 0 TOs but still called TO, it wasn't granted. The tech would have allowed us to hit or miss our FTs but we would have gotten the ball. Let the game end in the teams' hands not at the hands of the refs.

I like what Missouri does. I'm not saying their protest procedure is perfect. I'm doing my research and I called them and left a voice mail. Again, no one is trying to undermine the ref but sometimes like in my case it's too late. The team we lost to in OT by 1, won it all last night by 3.

UPDATE: This is an e-mail I received that was sent to ALL the refs in my district. I just happen to be friends w/ some and they shared it w/ me. I left out the e-mail address & name for obvious reasons.

On Jan 29, 2015 4:26 PM,
A coach or a player can call time-outs in excess of the
allotted number. It may be requested and shall be
granted at the expense of a technical foul, even if
you have told both teams that they were out of
time-outs.

Rule 5 Section 11 Art. 6.

Thanks
B*****

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Knights_Coach

One thing that kind of urks me is, I was told by several refs, that I can confide in, if I bring out the NFHS Rule Book during the game to show them or question a ref, expect to be tossed out of the game. So what good does it do me during a game? I've never seen somebody kicked out of court for bringing a Bible or The Constitution in court...get it court? Haha, thanks

Pretty sure he was referring to this comment you made, which is fully relevant. You're becoming less sympathetic with every post. The official made a mistake because he probably set aside a rule, which he shouldn't have. I'm sure he was educated, based on the email you posted. You made your point. You had a rough season as indicated by your record. You almost pulled a big upset at the end. Take away the positives and not the negatives. Maybe it's time to let it go and move on...

[deecee]

It's all about the kids. Little Johnny, Billy, Charlie, and The Fonz get the short end of the stick every time. The humanity, the inhumane treatment of the youth, the, the....you get it.

It's for the kids.

[Knights_Coach]

Smitty, you're right. Time to let it go. Time heals all wounds. I think I was the one looking for sympathy. I'd just like to say thanks to everyone, again for the great conversation.

Deecee, you're absolutely right. It's for the kids. If no one is there to fight for them. Who will? We licked our wounds and we are already planning for the next season.

I've learned so much about the game and myself. And I have A WHOLE LOT more to learn about the game. Gentlemen, if I've offended any I do apologize. So long and have a great weekend.

[Rich]

I guess you missed his sarcasm.