Free throw violation?

[David B]

Saw a crazy play the other night and have discussed with several other officials and we can't seem to come to a consensus. Thought I'd ask here to see what you guys might have ruled.

Play A1 shooting second of two free throws and is holding the ball when player A2 who is behind the three point line shoves B2 who is beside him and falls into the area which would be a violation.

The referee calls a foul on A2 for pushing B2 but the question is how to administer the play.

In the game I was watching they cleared the lane and let A1 shoot his free throw and then went to the other end and let B2 shoot his free throw since they were in the bonus.

My question is this a violation, should A1 should be able to shoot his second FT?

Also since the ball is live is this a team control foul and there should be no shots by B2 and team B simply gets the ball?

We have discussed other possible rulings what say you guys?

Thanks
David

[deecee]

Originally Posted by David B

Saw a crazy play the other night and have discussed with several other officials and we can't seem to come to a consensus. Thought I'd ask here to see what you guys might have ruled.

Play A1 shooting second of two free throws and is holding the ball when player A2 who is behind the three point line shoves B2 who is beside him and falls into the area which would be a violation.

The referee calls a foul on A2 for pushing B2 but the question is how to administer the play.

In the game I was watching they cleared the lane and let A1 shoot his free throw and then went to the other end and let B2 shoot his free throw since they were in the bonus.

My question is this a violation, should A1 should be able to shoot his second FT?

Also since the ball is live is this a team control foul and there should be no shots by B2 and team B simply gets the ball?

We have discussed other possible rulings what say you guys?

Thanks
David

This sound like an intentional foul to me. I would have A shoot their second FT with the lane cleared, then B shoot 2 and get the ball at the spot nearest the foul.

I could be swayed on not allowing A to shoot their second FT but I can't think of what I would apply to do that.

[Adam]

There is no basis for calling the violation on A2 and canceling the FT. There's precedent for ignoring the violation (say B2 had pushed A2 across the 3 pt line after A1's shooting motion had begun) when it's caused by a foul, but there's no precedent for charging the fouling player for a violation here.

You are correct, this should have been a TC foul, thus no FTs.

Players jockey for position all the time by pushing each other around, so I see nothing that indicates this should have been an intentional foul.

[OKREF]

Can you have a TC foul on a free throw? I don't think there is team control on a free throw is there?

I think I would most likely have an intentional foul. However with an intentional foul the resumption of play is point of interruption. Since that was at the second free throw wouldn't you shoot the intentional fouls first, then resume play with A's second free throw?

[Adam]

Player Control exists, thus team control.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Can you have a TC foul on a free throw? I don't think there is team control on a free throw is there?

I think I would most likely have an intentional foul. However with an intentional foul the resumption of play is point of interruption. Since that was at the second free throw wouldn't you shoot the intentional fouls first, then resume play with A's second free throw?

the player is holding a "live" ball--player and team control

[Valley Man]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I think I would most likely have an intentional foul. However with an intentional foul the resumption of play is point of interruption. Since that was at the second free throw wouldn't you shoot the intentional fouls first, then resume play with A's second free throw?

Intentional foul is spot nearest the foul (not POI) and it is possession of the ball.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Adam

Player Control exists, thus team control.

Originally Posted by Valley Man

Intentional foul is spot nearest the foul (not POI) and it is possession of the ball.

Yeah, you guys are right.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Adam

Player Control exists, thus team control.

A free throw is the exception to this rule. It is actually described in rule 11. During a free throw, the officiating crew is in control of the ball at all times.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Can you have a TC foul on a free throw? I don't think there is team control on a free throw is there?

I think I would most likely have an intentional foul. However with an intentional foul the resumption of play is point of interruption. Since that was at the second free throw wouldn't you shoot the intentional fouls first, then resume play with A's second free throw?

POI would apply to say double unsporting T here. So A shoots the second FT with the lanes occupied.

[johnny d]

For those who don't know, rule 11 is the rule that allows officials that don't know what the hell they are doing to continue making shit up as they go along. It is also the rule that allows officials to be convinced that they should call a violation on the shooting team, and disallow the second free throw for A1.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by David B

Play A1 shooting second of two free throws and is holding the ball when player A2 who is behind the three point line shoves B2 who is beside him and falls into the area which would be a violation.

Originally Posted by Adam

You are correct, this should have been a TC foul, thus no FTs.

Players jockey for position all the time by pushing each other around, so I see nothing that indicates this should have been an intentional foul.

While I understand on the lane, I don't think there's much jockeying for position on the 3 point line. Plus if it was a shove, maybe you HTBT, but this sounds like an intentional, not TC. I think I shoot the FT lanes cleared, then shoot the intentional at the other end lanes cleared, and finally inbound on the sideline closest to where the foul occurred.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by David B

Saw a crazy play the other night and have discussed with several other officials and we can't seem to come to a consensus. Thought I'd ask here to see what you guys might have ruled.

Play A1 shooting second of two free throws and is holding the ball when player A2 who is behind the three point line shoves B2 who is beside him and falls into the area which would be a violation.

The referee calls a foul on A2 for pushing B2 but the question is how to administer the play.

In the game I was watching they cleared the lane and let A1 shoot his free throw and then went to the other end and let B2 shoot his free throw since they were in the bonus.

My question is this a violation, should A1 should be able to shoot his second FT?

Also since the ball is live is this a team control foul and there should be no shots by B2 and team B simply gets the ball?

We have discussed other possible rulings what say you guys?

Thanks
David

A foul is not a violation, so the free throw for A1 is not eliminated. Yes, there is TC on a free throw. But, for 2 people standing behind the 3-pt line though, hard to imagine it not being intentional.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by BigCat

the player is holding a "live" ball-...

If that's the case. If the free throw try has been released (the OP says "...is shooting...", so there's some ambiguity, there), then, just to be totally clear, this would no longer be a team control foul, and free throws could be shot for it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by frezer11

While I understand on the lane, I don't think there's much jockeying for position on the 3 point line. Plus if it was a shove, maybe you HTBT, but this sounds like an intentional, not TC. I think I shoot the FT lanes cleared, then shoot the intentional at the other end lanes cleared, and finally inbound on the sideline closest to where the foul occurred.

Not common, but certainly possible without an IF. If both players are leaning in waiting for the ball to hit, it may not take much force to knock the opponent across the lane.

I'm just saying it's not automatic, and there's nothing in the OP that makes me think it's more than what he said. The officials there didn't deem it an intentional foul.