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[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Both of you need to closely read 5-9-1 and 5-9-4.

Seems to me that you need to read 5-9-1 yourself.

5-9-1: After time has been out, the clock shall be started when the official signals time-in. If the official neglects to signal, the timer is authorized to start the clock as per rule, unless an official specifically signals continued time-out.

If that doesn't do it for you, check out 5-8-1c:

Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:
ART. 1 . . . Signals:
a. A foul.
b. A held ball.
c. A violation.

In the OP, that's the only signal one should make.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Seems to me that you need to read 5-9-1 yourself.

5-9-1: After time has been out, the clock shall be started when the official signals time-in. If the official neglects to signal, the timer is authorized to start the clock as per rule, unless an official specifically signals continued time-out.

If that doesn't do it for you, check out 5-8-1c:

Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:
ART. 1 . . . Signals:
a. A foul.
b. A held ball.
c. A violation.

In the OP, that's the only signal one should make.

Nonsense.
First, how can the timer or anyone tell if an official forgot to chop or is specifically signaling continued time-out? Answer: one cannot.
Second, how does an official signal a violation? Answer: raise hand AND blow the whistle.

You are claiming that continually holding up the arm for time-out is also the signal for a BI, kicking, or fist violation, but how can anyone tell? When does the raised arm change its meaning? When the whistle sounds? If so, then the whistle is the indicator of the violation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nonsense.
First, how can the timer or anyone tell if an official forgot to chop or is specifically signaling continued time-out? Answer: one cannot.
Second, how does an official signal a violation? Answer: raise hand AND blow the whistle.

You are claiming that continually holding up the arm for time-out is also the signal for a BI, kicking, or fist violation, but how can anyone tell? When does the raised arm change its meaning? When the whistle sounds? If so, then the whistle is the indicator of the violation.

Fine, the whistle is the indicator of the violation. To summarize: The official did "specifically signal continued timeout", so the clock does not start.

What more is there to consider?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Fine, the whistle is the indicator of the violation. To summarize: The official did "specifically signal continued timeout", so the clock does not start.

What more is there to consider?

How about WHY the official would continue to signal time-out when the ball is legally touched on the court and properness (or improperness) of doing so?
You cannot find one rule anywhere which states that the clock should not start on this touch. You can only find a rule stating that the clock shall stop on the violation. Now why is that?
Because it works the way I wrote in my first post in this thread--the clock should start and then stop. We can debate how quickly (My answer is however long it takes the human official to recognize the violation and sound his whistle plus however long it takes the human timer to react to hearing that whistle and click the stop-clock switch.), but we cannot debate that BY RULE the clock is to start in cases of a touch other than a kick or punch of the ball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How about WHY the official would continue to signal time-out when the ball is legally touched on the court and properness (or improperness) of doing so?
You cannot find one rule anywhere which states that the clock should not start on this touch. You can only find a rule stating that the clock shall stop on the violation. Now why is that?
Because it works the way I wrote in my first post in this thread--the clock should start and then stop. We can debate how quickly (My answer is however long it takes the human official to recognize the violation and sound his whistle plus however long it takes the human timer to react to hearing that whistle and click the stop-clock switch.), but we cannot debate that BY RULE the clock is to start in cases of a touch other than a kick or punch of the ball.

What does the word UNLESS mean to you? He should start the clock UNLESS this happens. Guess what, it happened.

Try one more. 6-7-9 tells us that the ball becomes dead when a violation occurs. But you're saying the clock must start at this point when the ball is clearly dead?

[Nevadaref]

1. You didn't answer WHY the official isn't starting the clock on the LEGAL touch.
2. You have not cited an NFHS rule or Case Play stating not to start the clock on such a touch as there is for a kick/fist.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. You didn't answer WHY the official isn't starting the clock on the LEGAL touch.
2. You have not cited an NFHS rule or Case Play stating not to start the clock on such a touch as there is for a kick/fist.

I'm thinking that they figure you'll know enough not to start it when an act occurs which stops it.

If you want to split hairs and read every word: 5-9-3 says on a missed free throw the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court.

It doesn't say legally touched. So if a player kicks a missed free throw out of bounds would you start the clock then too?