Book Situation

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This is why the NFHS rule is stupid. Argument aside as to which number the coach said wasn't playing. The home/official score keeper was given a roster with all the visiting players listed, including the player in question. Because the home score keeper did not list this player in the official book, the visiting team is now assessed a technical foul. The NCAA-M rule specifically addresses this situation, and allows changes to be made without penalty for a bookkeeping mistake, which this clearly is.

The NFHS rule is fine. It only requires that the information be presented by the 10 minute mark. If it was presented to the scorer but the scorer made an error in entering the information, then there is no penalty. Just like the NCAA rule.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

I have had a lot more officials this year signing off on the book after I declare it ready to go to prevent such an issue even in my lower level games.Over the sound of warm up music I can see how this mistake might have occurred.In my varsity games the book is prepared ahead of time-during halftime of JV boys I will say hello to the visiting coaches and hand them a roster and ask them to mark their starters and verify #'s are correct and mark DNP's.This way if I have any issues at all I have paperwork that shows what the coach has filled out or said was correct.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The NFHS rule is fine. It only requires that the information be presented by the 10 minute mark. If it was presented to the scorer but the scorer made an error in entering the information, then there is no penalty. Just like the NCAA rule.

No Camron, the NFHS rule does not allow the book to be changed without penalty of a technical foul when a name needs to be added because of a bookkeeping mistake. This situation is not listed as an allowed exception in the NFHS manual but is in the NCAA-M manual. Therefore, by rule, adding the name in a HS game, even because the score keeper messed up is a technical foul. Again, stupid rule on NFHS part.

The NCAA-M rule

Art. 2. After the 10-minute mark is reached on the game clock that is counting
down the time before the start of the game and until the end of the game, a team
shall not make changes to the scorebook. The only changes permitted are those
necessitated by obvious injury, illness, blood on the uniform, a replacement of a
designated starter to shoot a technical-foul free throw, or to correct a scoring or
bookkeeping mistake.


The NFHS rule is almost identical, but it does not contain the words bolded and underlined above.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by johnny d

No Camron, the NFHS rule does not allow the book to be changed without penalty of a technical foul when a name needs to be added because of a bookkeeping mistake.

I agree with Camron on this -- the rule requires the coach to SUPPLY the scorer with the roster. The coach met the requirement. No T.

The rule does not require the coach to verify the information in the book.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by johnny d

... the NFHS rule does not allow the book to be changed without penalty of a technical foul when a name needs to be added because of a bookkeeping mistake. ...This situation is not listed as an allowed exception in the NFHS manual ... Therefore, by rule, adding the name in a HS game, even because the score keeper messed up is a technical foul.

No. Once the team supplies the scorer with the name, and number, of the participants, the team has fulfilled that part of the rule. If the scorer makes a mistake, it's not technical foul to add a name, assuming the submitted roster was correct to begin with.

NFHS 10-1: A team shall not:
ART. 1 Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team
member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10
minutes before the scheduled starting time.
ART. 2 After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1:
b. Add a name to the team member list.

[Rich]

There's no reason for teams not to list extra players. At least that's what I thought.

But I've come to appreciate another side of this now that I'm also an administrator. We have a quarter limit here -- 4 quarters per day unless a school has a 5th (or 6th) quarter waiver. No eligibility - coach doesn't put the person in the book. That way if he forgets and runs the kid to the table, there should be someone telling him that he made a mistake.

I still verify when there are fewer number than kids warming up and this is invariably the answer I get.

Originally Posted by Rich

But I've come to appreciate another side of this now that I'm also an administrator. We have a quarter limit here -- 4 quarters per day unless a school has a 5th (or 6th) quarter waiver. No eligibility - coach doesn't put the person in the book. That way if he forgets and runs the kid to the table, there should be someone telling him that he made a mistake.

My state has a quarter rule as well and we ran into this problem the other night. 5th foul on a player, coach wanted to sub a player whose quarters were used up. He ended up asking my partner if that was ok and my two partners had to get together to discuss. Not much to discuss, it's not our job to track or enforce the quarter rule. That is up to the AD and state office.

Also had a coach want to add a JV player to the roster around 6 minutes. My R went over and asked the coach if the player was going to play; the coach said probably not. The R then told the coach to wait to add the player if he is going to actually play. We had a close game and the kid never played, so no T. Seemed smart to do it that way.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Also had a coach want to add a JV player to the roster around 6 minutes. My R went over and asked the coach if the player was going to play; the coach said probably not. The R then told the coach to wait to add the player if he is going to actually play. We had a close game and the kid never played, so no T. Seemed smart to do it that way.

Agreed, I've had this happen too. The only way the kid is getting in is if it is not a close game, so why take a T off the bat if you might not need it anyways?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

That way if he forgets and runs the kid to the table, there should be someone telling him that he made a mistake.

Wow. You really trust your table crew. I wouldn't take this chance. If the table crew initially misses it, and later catches it, the other team will be shooting free throws, and the kid still played his extra period.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

There's no reason for teams not to list extra players.

How about a reason from our stupid friends at IAABO (Wait? Did I say that out loud?).

IAABO Refresher Exam 2005: Question 73. Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warmup, the referee counts eleven team members of team A but while checking the book team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct? Answer: Yes Rule Citation: Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1; Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4.

Please note that this is an IAABO exam question, not a NFHS exam question. IAABO exam questions are supposed to be based on NFHS rules, key phrase, "supposed to".

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...8837-book.html

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnny d

No Camron, the NFHS rule does not allow the book to be changed without penalty of a technical foul when a name needs to be added because of a bookkeeping mistake. This situation is not listed as an allowed exception in the NFHS manual but is in the NCAA-M manual. Therefore, by rule, adding the name in a HS game, even because the score keeper messed up is a technical foul. Again, stupid rule on NFHS part.

The NCAA-M rule

Art. 2. After the 10-minute mark is reached on the game clock that is counting down the time before the start of the game and until the end of the game, a team shall not make changes to the scorebook. The only changes permitted are those necessitated by obvious injury, illness, blood on the uniform, a replacement of a designated starter to shoot a technical-foul free throw, or to correct a scoring or bookkeeping mistake.


The NFHS rule is almost identical, but it does not contain the words bolded and underlined above.

The point you're missing is what I've highlighted in red. If the team submitted the right information, it isn't the team making the change.

If what you suggest were true, and unscrupulous scorer could deliberately alter the number of a starter when entering the roster to guarantee a T on the visiting team. Do you really think that is what the rule intends to allow?

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The point you're missing is what I've highlighted in red. If the team submitted the right information, it isn't the team making the change.

If what you suggest were true, and unscrupulous scorer could deliberately alter the number of a starter when entering the roster to guarantee a T on the visiting team. Do you really think that is what the rule intends to allow?

No I don't think that is what the rule intends, and if they added a few extra words like the NCAA-M rule, it would make it crystal clear.

In theory, the unscrupulous scorer could do that, but once teams found out team A was having their scorer do this routinely, they would just have their scorers do it to team A when they played in their gyms. Not sure any team or coach would want the possibility of having this happen to them at every road game just to gain an advantage for their home games.

[BryanV21]

The rule is that a team simply has to present the full roster. Whether or not it gets put into the book correctly is another issue. So in the OP it's not a technical foul, because (as I understand it) the visiting team did indeed present the full roster. The fact that the scorekeeper didn't write the full roster into the book is inconsequential.

When I go to check the book before the 10:00 mark, I simply make sure the full roster was presented to the official scorekeeper. I will go ahead and initial the book below the list of players once they are all in, so I can tell if they try to add a player, but whether the roster is transferred into the book or not doesn't matter (at least in terms of this type of technical foul).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

The rule is that a team simply has to present the full roster. Whether or not it gets put into the book correctly is another issue. So in the OP it's not a technical foul, because (as I understand it) the visiting team did indeed present the full roster. The fact that the scorekeeper didn't write the full roster into the book is inconsequential.

When I go to check the book before the 10:00 mark, I simply make sure the full roster was presented to the official scorekeeper. I will go ahead and initial the book below the list of players once they are all in, so I can tell if they try to add a player, but whether the roster is transferred into the book or not doesn't matter (at least in terms of this type of technical foul).

Exactly. The rule only requires the team to provide the information. If the team provides it and the scorer messes it up, it is not their fault and they are not responsible for it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by johnny d

No I don't think that is what the rule intends, and if they added a few extra words like the NCAA-M rule, it would make it crystal clear.

In theory, the unscrupulous scorer could do that, but once teams found out team A was having their scorer do this routinely, they would just have their scorers do it to team A when they played in their gyms. Not sure any team or coach would want the possibility of having this happen to them at every road game just to gain an advantage for their home games.

Forget any unscrupulous behavior. Just consider the situation in which the visiting team properly submitted a copy of its roster to the official scorer and that person made an honest mistake when transferring the information to the official book (perhaps he skipped a team member or got two numbers reversed). Let's further stipulate that the scorer even admits the mistake was his.

Your stance is that this team must now be penalized for something completely beyond its control because that is how that one rule reads. In my opinion that is very poor judgment for a referee.

You are failing to understand that the NFHS rule for scorebook changes presupposes that the team followed the submission requirement and that nothing else irregular took place, such as a screw up by the scorer. The rules function in conjunction with each other, not in isolation.

Lastly, the NFHS rules book contains a statement near the beginning about the importance of understanding the intent and purpose of the rules so that they may be intelligently applied. Penalizing a team for the mistake of someone not even associated with the team would not be in accordance with that.