New thread: Karl Hess out of ACC

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by maroonx

Valentine did not use a racial slur when emotions were high Thats the key.

And that is why the whole situation and our PC culture is ridiculous. It is ok to insult somebody by calling them a dumb mother ****er, but it isn't ok to call the same person a dumb insert racial/ethnic/religious slur here mother ****er. Give me a freaking break, both are insults, saying either to a fan should be considered unprofessional, and neither should result in Hess being fired.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by johnny d

And that is why the whole situation and our PC culture is ridiculous. It is ok to insult somebody by calling them a dumb mother ****er, but it isn't ok to call the same person a dumb insert racial/ethnic/religious slur here mother ****er. Give me a freaking break, both are insults, saying either to a fan should be considered unprofessional, and neither should result in Hess being fired.

Both would get me fired from my lower division conferences, why shouldn't it get a Big Dawg fired from a Big Boy conference?

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Both would get me fired from my lower division conferences, why shouldn't it get a Big Dawg fired from a Big Boy conference?

I think a suspension is merited, not firing, unless it has happened before and he has already been disciplined for it before. I am pretty sure Hess just didn't single the guy out and say what he said for no reason. The guy was probably acting like an ******* the entire game. Was it professional behavior on Hess's part, of course not, but if the criteria is that we have to be completely professional 100% of the time, than there wouldn't be anybody left to officiate the games. Which brings me to another point, what kind of douche bag insults another person all game long and then cries on social media when the person responds?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I think a suspension is merited, not firing, unless it has happened before and he has already been disciplined for it before. I am pretty sure Hess just didn't single the guy out and say what he said for no reason. The guy was probably acting like an ******* the entire game. Was it professional behavior on Hess's part, of course not, but if the criteria is that we have to be completely professional 100% of the time, than there wouldn't be anybody left to officiate the games. Which brings me to another point, what kind of douche bag insults another person all game long and then cries on social media when the person responds?

Believe me, I am one of those officials who doesn't believe we have to take sh!t from coaches and fans and stand there stoned face. I am very sarcastic, and I have a quick, biting wit. Unfortunately, that may work well at parties or shut up loudmouths at sports bars, but it's not what will keep me employed as an official (not great for marriages either). If he leaves the bigoted part of his statement out, then I see it being only a suspension. But he threw in the word "Eygptian". What is the purpose of that? Would it have been alright to say "fat", or "retarded", or "crackhead", or "orphaned" or "brown a$$"? Hess crossed a line.

Hess is from Virginia, so I know a lot of officials who know him personally, on and off the court. So far it has been unanimous that Hess does not socially interact on the same wave length as the general populous. He is known for making statements that only he finds funny, that most others find offensive or inappropriate.

So I am guessing this is not the first time Hess has said something to somebody (supervisor/official/AD/Coach/school president/fan/ball boy) that was out of line. This may just be the last straw, and a straw that would have been the first and last for many of us.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Believe me, I am one of those officials who doesn't believe we have to take sh!t from coaches and fans and stand there stoned face. I am very sarcastic, and I have a quick, biting wit. Unfortunately, that may work well at parties or shut up loudmouths at sports bars, it's not what will keep me employed as an official (also not great for marriages either). If he leaves the bigoted part of his statement out, then I see it being only a suspension. But he threw in the word "Eygptian". What is the purpose of that? Would it have been alright to say "fat", or "retarded", or "crackhead", or "orphaned" or "brown a$$"? Hess crossed a line.

Hess is from Virginia, so I know a lot of officials who know him personally, on and off the court. So far it has been unanimous that Hess does not socially interact on the same wave length as the general populous. He is known for making statements that only he finds funny, that most others find offensive or inappropriate.

So I am guessing this is not the first time Hess has said something to somebody (supervisor/officials/AD/Coach/school president/fan/ball boy) that was out of line. This may just be the last straw, and a straw that would have been the first and last for many of us.

That is fine, I am just trying to find out where the line is. To me the modifier attached to my example of dumb mother ****er, be it brown, black, fat, retarded, jewish, Egyptian, etc. would not make me any more or less offended than just being told I was a dumb mother ****er.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Was it professional behavior on Hess's part, of course not, but if the criteria is that we have to be completely professional 100% of the time, than there wouldn't be anybody left to officiate the games.

Actually, I beg to differ. I have noticed that there is an infinite supply of newer and younger officials below me who want my games. I see them at camp every year. Makes me realize that I have to be completely professional 100% of the time.

Fortunately for me, 100% professional is the standard that I choose to uphold. Maybe it's my military background, but to me that's the right way to do business.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Actually, I beg to differ. I have noticed that there is an infinite supply of newer and younger officials below me who want my games. I see them at camp every year. Makes me realize that I have to be completely professional 100% of the time.

Fortunately for me, 100% professional is the standard that I choose to uphold. Maybe it's my military background, but to me that's the right way to do business.

That is a great standard to strive for, unfortunately just like every other aspect of officiating and life, it is impossible to accomplish. I am sorry, but military background or not, I am sure you are just like every other person on this planet and have had lapses in professionalism at one point or another.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by johnny d

That is a great standard to strive for, unfortunately just like every other aspect of officiating and life, it is impossible to accomplish. I am sorry, but military background or not, I am sure you are just like every other person on this planet and have had lapses in professionalism at one point or another.

Sure. Doesn't happen very often, but when it does, I am held accountable for it because I am in a position of leadership. I accept that.

You make the argument that the fan was somehow just as culpable as Hess because he was being an @$$hole. I disagree. Hess was the leader in this situation. The accountability is his alone.

To his credit, Hess accepted responsibility for his actions. He even gave up games in other conferences. Whether he was "highly encouraged" to do this or not doesn't matter to me. The fact is that he did it. I respect that.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Sure. Doesn't happen very often, but when it does, I am held accountable for it because I am in a position of leadership. I accept that.

You make the argument that the fan was somehow just as culpable as Hess because he was being an @$$hole. I disagree. Hess was the leader in this situation. The accountability is his alone.

To his credit, Hess accepted responsibility for his actions. He even gave up games in other conferences. Whether he was "highly encouraged" to do this or not doesn't matter to me. The fact is that he did it. I respect that.

I did not say or mean to imply the fan was culpable or expected to act in the same professional manner that Hess was. I just pointed out the fact that it takes an exceptional ass wipe to hurl insults at some one and then cry foul when that person responds with an insult.

[Referee24.7]

To respond to Johnny D - whether or not its a racial slur, a profanity, or just a flat-out insult - the fact still remains that if you're videotaped and it shows you having those kinds of interaction (regardless of what you said) to a fan, coach, etc etc - you're on the hook for it and there is nothing you can do to validate your actions. . .

Again, especially for officials of stature such as Hess and Valentine - and we've all been to camps, training, etc etc, where we've been told time and time again not to have those kinds of interactions (or perceived actions) with coaches, players, etc - why should it be any different for those individuals?

Now given, do coaches, players, and fans do things at times to where we need to address it? Absolutely. There's just "remedies" we have such as technical fouls, ejections, getting the assistance of site administration (those tools), that are available for us to use, that can handle such situations. . .

99% of the time, its the things that have absolutely nothing to do with actually officiating a basketball game that get us in trouble, and in Hess' case, that's what happened.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Both would get me fired from my lower division conferences, why shouldn't it get a Big Dawg fired from a Big Boy conference?

This.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by johnny d

And that is why the whole situation and our PC culture is ridiculous. It is ok to insult somebody by calling them a dumb mother ****er, but it isn't ok to call the same person a dumb insert racial/ethnic/religious slur here mother ****er. Give me a freaking break, both are insults, saying either to a fan should be considered unprofessional, and neither should result in Hess being fired.

I'd get fired in a heartbeat if I ever called a coach or fan either of those things.
And any coach that called me either of those things in a game would find that his/her presence was no longer required that day.

[JRutledge]

If I said that at the lower level college or HS level, I would be fired and likely suspended for my license. That is not a PC world, that is a good world where you should not be able to say those things and it be OK. If I did so at my job I would deal with the right people hearing or knowing, I would be suspended and probably would lose some other licenses or deal with a real complaint if I said such a thing or made such a reference.

Peace

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is not a PC world, that is a good world where you should not be able to say those things and it be OK.

Peace

This is exactly what a PC world entails. Yes, there are many things that can be said that are offensive....so what? Other than having their feelings hurt, how exactly is a person injured by having offensive things said to them? A world where people are not allowed to say offensive things, sounds rather Orwellian to me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This is exactly what a PC world entails. Yes, there are many things that can be said that are offensive....so what? Other than having their feelings hurt, how exactly is a person injured by having offensive things said to them? A world where people are not allowed to say offensive things, sounds rather Orwellian to me.

Like it or not, officiating is a customer service job, and while I can certainly say anything I want to say while working my job, my employer is not required to keep me employed. That concept applies to independent contractors as well.

When someone suggest Hess go to jail, we can discuss Orwelle, IMO.