Leaving the court early

[Adam]

Originally Posted by frezer11

I'm with Adam on this. I Believe that by the book, unless it's a 5th foul or something, the rules requires him to stay for the technical free throws. However, if there is some emotion, I probably bring the sub in right away. That avoids this whole scenario.

Actually, the rule does not require this. The rule is that they must wait until right before the final free throw of a personal foul. If the foul is technical, then they do not have to wait by rule.

That said, I would apply your logic to an intentional foul as well. If you want to get picky, let the problem child sit a second and bring the sub in when it's allowed by rule. AFAIC, getting a problem child off of my court is an authorized reason.

[Rich1]

This is a tough situation because the coach was trying to do a good thing and there may have been some room here for preventative officiating. But there is room for preventative coaching as well.

The coach has to know the rules and keep his players from leaving and entering the court when they shouldn't. Maybe bring the player over to the sideline to chew on him while he stands on the court, then send in the sub when beckoned, and chew him out some more on the bench.

As a former coach I know mistakes happen and have been in your situation before. But now that its done all you can do is take this as a good opportunity to teach the players about appropriate behavior and proper sub procedures so it doesn't happen in a big game.

[Nevadaref]

1. It is not a violation to leave the floor during a dead ball.
2. It is not a technical foul to leave the floor when the action does not involve showing disgust or resentment.
3. The team member coming from the bench did enter illegally because he was not beckoned in by an official (perhaps he checked-in at the table, perhaps not).
4. With technical fouls, substitutes are permitted prior to the first free throw.

The correct administration for this situation is a personal foul by A1, then an unsporting technical foul by A1 (for running his mouth), and finally a technical foul charged to the illegally-entering substitute per rule 10-2. No indirect technicals are charged to the head coach.

Don't know if Team B is entitled to FTs for the initial foul by A1 (the personal foul), but four FTs are warranted for the two technical fouls.

[dcourtney50]

Thanks to those who took the time to respond.

Thinking back, he never mentioned the word "indirect" but I'm guessing that is what he gave me or the other team would have been awarded even more free throws. As it were, he gave 2 for the original foul and 4 for the 2 techs he gave my player.

As I stated, I know I screwed up by yanking my player right away. It was the heat of the moment and I was teaching a lesson by backing the ref. As others have mentioned, I was punished when I was supporting the ref, not trying to escalate things.

It seems like many think this was an overreaction on the refs part and that he didn't have to do what he did. I'm still not certain of this though: Was the ref technically correct in assigning a tech for my player leaving the court? I've seen some folks say it is a violation, not a tech.

In a previous game, this ref game one of my players a tech for handing him the ball after making a basket. Another of my players had done the same thing earlier and drew a warning for touching the ball after a basket. I scolded my players for it because I support officials, but deep down I was angry because I've seen players hand the back to officials countless times without being called for a delay. There was no intent to delay but I knew the letter of the law was against us so there was no argument. Today, I'm still not certain of the letter of the law.

If a player leaves the court and another comes on before being waved in - violation or technical?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by dcourtney50

Thanks to those who took the time to respond.

Thinking back, he never mentioned the word "indirect" but I'm guessing that is what he gave me or the other team would have been awarded even more free throws. As it were, he gave 2 for the original foul and 4 for the 2 techs he gave my player.

In my opinion, the correct number of FTs were awarded despite the fouls not being charged to the proper individuals.

Originally Posted by dcourtney50

As I stated, I know I screwed up by yanking my player right away. It was the heat of the moment and I was teaching a lesson by backing the ref. As others have mentioned, I was punished when I was supporting the ref, not trying to escalate things.

As an official, I would have quickly waved your sub in from the table to prevent this whole mess. As a coach, simply say to the nearest official, "May I sub him, please? Sub, please." If the officials are aware of what you are attempting to do (an immediate sub for a player just receiving a T) other problems will likely not occur.

Originally Posted by dcourtney50

It seems like many think this was an overreaction on the refs part and that he didn't have to do what he did. I'm still not certain of this though: Was the ref technically correct in assigning a tech for my player leaving the court? I've seen some folks say it is a violation, not a tech.

Combining this and the next section of your post.

Originally Posted by dcourtney50

If a player leaves the court and another comes on before being waved in - violation or technical?

Here is the actual text of the two rules in question.

From the technical foul section of the rules:
10-6i: "A player shall not:
Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as:..."
"Leave the playing court for an unauthorized reason to demonstrate resentment, disgust or intimidation."


From the violation section of the rules:
9-3-3: "A player shall not leave the court for an unauthorized reason.
PENALTY: (Section 3) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation. (See 6-7-9 Exception d)"

Therefore, the official was incorrect to penalize the player who left the court as you have stated that it was not done in disgust, resentment, or intimidation, but only per your instruction. Although the official may have perceived that the player was acting in one of the listed illegal manners.

The violation is only appropriate during a live ball. It is not against the rules to depart during a dead ball. So this rule was not violated in your situation.

What was infringed? The following rule for substitution:
From the technical foul section of the rules:
10-2 articles 1&2: "ART. 1A substitute shall not enter the court:
Without reporting to the scorer.
ART. 2
A substitute shall not enter the court:
Without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters and during time-outs.
PENALTY: (Section 2) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. One foul for either or both requirements. Penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live."

Thus the correct individual to penalize in your scenario is the team member ENTERING the court as an illegal substitute since he either didn't report or wasn't beckoned by an official.

This would have eliminated your other player from being charged with his second technical foul and disqualified.

Originally Posted by dcourtney50

In a previous game, this ref game one of my players a tech for handing him the ball after making a basket. Another of my players had done the same thing earlier and drew a warning for touching the ball after a basket. I scolded my players for it because I support officials, but deep down I was angry because I've seen players hand the back to officials countless times without being called for a delay. There was no intent to delay but I knew the letter of the law was against us so there was no argument. Today, I'm still not certain of the letter of the law.

The scoring team needs to leave the ball alone after it passes through the basket. Grabbing it and tossing it to an official certainly qualifies as interfering with the ball following a goal and can get your team a delay of game warning. That should be officially reported to the scorer and the head coach. The next time that one of your players interfered it would be a team technical foul, not charged directly to the individual player.

10-1-5:
"A team shall not:
Allow the game to develop into an actionless contest, this includes the following and similar acts:
a. When the clock is not running consuming a full minute through not being ready when it is time to start either half.
b. Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play. See 7-5-1 and 8-1-2 for the resumption-of-play procedure to use after a time-out or the intermission between quarters. The procedure is used prior to charging a technical foul in these specific situations.
c. Commit a violation of the throw-in boundary-line plane, as in 9-2-10, after any team warning for delay.
d. Contact with the free thrower or a huddle of two or more players in the lane by either team prior to a free throw following any team warning for delay.
e. Interfering with the ball following a goal after any team warning for delay.
f. Not having the court ready for play following any time-out after any team warning for delay."

You do a wonderful job of handling your players and supporting the officials. Thank you and best wishes in the future.

[Rich1]

Neither of these techs would have been charged indirect to the coach. The first tech (even though it may have been given in error) is on an active player and the second tech was on a substitute which is treated differently than a bench player.

[Kelvin green]

I am never going to penalize a Coach for getting a numbskull off the floor.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Neither of these techs would have been charged indirect to the coach. The first tech (even though it may have been given in error) is on an active player and the second tech was on a substitute which is treated differently than a bench player.

Actually, since the sub entered illegally, the kid who left is still a player until the ball becomes live.