Leaving the court early

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You know that it doesn't matter from where he came if he wasn't beckoned in by an official. The penalty for 10-2 is one technical foul for either or both requirements (reporting to the table and being beckoned).

Yes, of course I know that. I'm just fact gathering. Don't get ahead of me.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by dcourtney50

Thanks to those who took the time to respond.

Thinking back, he never mentioned the word "indirect" but I'm guessing that is what he gave me or the other team would have been awarded even more free throws. As it were, he gave 2 for the original foul and 4 for the 2 techs he gave my player.

In my opinion, the correct number of FTs were awarded despite the fouls not being charged to the proper individuals.

Originally Posted by dcourtney50

As I stated, I know I screwed up by yanking my player right away. It was the heat of the moment and I was teaching a lesson by backing the ref. As others have mentioned, I was punished when I was supporting the ref, not trying to escalate things.

As an official, I would have quickly waved your sub in from the table to prevent this whole mess. As a coach, simply say to the nearest official, "May I sub him, please? Sub, please." If the officials are aware of what you are attempting to do (an immediate sub for a player just receiving a T) other problems will likely not occur.

Originally Posted by dcourtney50

It seems like many think this was an overreaction on the refs part and that he didn't have to do what he did. I'm still not certain of this though: Was the ref technically correct in assigning a tech for my player leaving the court? I've seen some folks say it is a violation, not a tech.

Combining this and the next section of your post.

Originally Posted by dcourtney50

If a player leaves the court and another comes on before being waved in - violation or technical?

Here is the actual text of the two rules in question.

From the technical foul section of the rules:
10-6i: "A player shall not:
Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as:..."
"Leave the playing court for an unauthorized reason to demonstrate resentment, disgust or intimidation."


From the violation section of the rules:
9-3-3: "A player shall not leave the court for an unauthorized reason.
PENALTY: (Section 3) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation. (See 6-7-9 Exception d)"

Therefore, the official was incorrect to penalize the player who left the court as you have stated that it was not done in disgust, resentment, or intimidation, but only per your instruction. Although the official may have perceived that the player was acting in one of the listed illegal manners.

The violation is only appropriate during a live ball. It is not against the rules to depart during a dead ball. So this rule was not violated in your situation.

What was infringed? The following rule for substitution:
From the technical foul section of the rules:
10-2 articles 1&2: "ART. 1A substitute shall not enter the court:
Without reporting to the scorer.
ART. 2
A substitute shall not enter the court:
Without being beckoned by an official, except between quarters and during time-outs.
PENALTY: (Section 2) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. One foul for either or both requirements. Penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live."

Thus the correct individual to penalize in your scenario is the team member ENTERING the court as an illegal substitute since he either didn't report or wasn't beckoned by an official.

This would have eliminated your other player from being charged with his second technical foul and disqualified.

Originally Posted by dcourtney50

In a previous game, this ref game one of my players a tech for handing him the ball after making a basket. Another of my players had done the same thing earlier and drew a warning for touching the ball after a basket. I scolded my players for it because I support officials, but deep down I was angry because I've seen players hand the back to officials countless times without being called for a delay. There was no intent to delay but I knew the letter of the law was against us so there was no argument. Today, I'm still not certain of the letter of the law.

The scoring team needs to leave the ball alone after it passes through the basket. Grabbing it and tossing it to an official certainly qualifies as interfering with the ball following a goal and can get your team a delay of game warning. That should be officially reported to the scorer and the head coach. The next time that one of your players interfered it would be a team technical foul, not charged directly to the individual player.

10-1-5:
"A team shall not:
Allow the game to develop into an actionless contest, this includes the following and similar acts:
a. When the clock is not running consuming a full minute through not being ready when it is time to start either half.
b. Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play. See 7-5-1 and 8-1-2 for the resumption-of-play procedure to use after a time-out or the intermission between quarters. The procedure is used prior to charging a technical foul in these specific situations.
c. Commit a violation of the throw-in boundary-line plane, as in 9-2-10, after any team warning for delay.
d. Contact with the free thrower or a huddle of two or more players in the lane by either team prior to a free throw following any team warning for delay.
e. Interfering with the ball following a goal after any team warning for delay.
f. Not having the court ready for play following any time-out after any team warning for delay."

You do a wonderful job of handling your players and supporting the officials. Thank you and best wishes in the future.

[Rich1]

Neither of these techs would have been charged indirect to the coach. The first tech (even though it may have been given in error) is on an active player and the second tech was on a substitute which is treated differently than a bench player.

[Kelvin green]

I am never going to penalize a Coach for getting a numbskull off the floor.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Neither of these techs would have been charged indirect to the coach. The first tech (even though it may have been given in error) is on an active player and the second tech was on a substitute which is treated differently than a bench player.

Actually, since the sub entered illegally, the kid who left is still a player until the ball becomes live.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by dcourtney50

I'm a coach, not a ref, and I was searching for a clarification but did not find the exact scenario I 'm looking for. I apologize in advance if the answer is in this forum elsewhere.

My player ran his mouth after he was called for a foul and was given a technical. In my anger at the player, I sent him immediately to the bench and another player came on to the court before the opposing player lined up to take his free throws. Clearly, I was wrong for not waiting for the player to be called in by the ref - I get that.

The result was that my player who left the court was given a technical, which was now his second and he was kicked out of the game. We were also given a bench technical and warned that one more and I would be out. The other team received 6 free throws, including the original 2 for the foul.

I'm seeing mixed answers on the web as to whether leaving the court constitutes a technical or merely a violation. Who get the technical: the player coming in? the player leaving? me? all of us? some of us?

Thanks in advance.

Coach:

There is no way I would be charging your player with another TF for the situation described. In fact, I would be giving you a fine Cuban cigar for recognizing you have a problem player and was proactive in taking care of business. The officials were being Overly Officiating Officials (OOO).

We wish more HCs had your fore sight with players who act inappropriately.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

I am never going to penalize a Coach for getting a numbskull off the floor.

I agree.

MTD, Sr.

Hi dcourtney50 thanks for coming here wanting to learn. I noticed you mentioned a "bench technical" in your OP and wanted to clarify that for you. Any substitute or bench personnel (assistant coaches, managers, etc.) that receives a bench technical is also "indirect" to you the head coach.

Basically it means you are responsible for your bench and holds you responsible by putting you a little closer to ejection (in addition to the free throws and getting the ball). The head coach is ejected when a combination of three direct or indirect technicals is reached. Many refs call it an "indirect technical" but I prefer to think of it as a technical that has indirect properties, so that we don't confuse it with a separate technical.

Thus, you as the head coach could receive an "indirect" by your assistant getting whacked, get a technical yourself, and then have a bench player get whacked (again indirect to you) and you would then be ejected. In your OP the referee was wrong that one more would result in ejection -- none of the two technicals he called had any indirect properties to you. Even if your player had been bench personnel when he got his second you would only have 1 indirect and could get two more before ejection.

[so cal lurker]

Perhaps the referee who gave the second T was not aware the coach told him to come off, and believed from the way he left and went to the bench that he was doing it to demonstrate disgust with the calls?