Coaches understanding LGP

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Lately, I have been running into officials, usually the old timers or those who have been around awhile, who think that if the defender is under the basket or behind and an airborne shooter runs them over that they won't call a charge. Their rationale is that the player can't really play defense from there so why reward them. What do you all think about this? has the rule changed in HS to what it is now? Are they just trying to roll over the NBE and NCAA with the RA that isn't there? How do you respond to someone like that?

I am one of those old timers that WILL call the charge.

MTD, Sr.

[Rob1968]

I don't have my NFHS books from the year that the specific editorial change was made, in Rule 4-23, which removed the word "establish" and inserted the word "obtain", in regards to LGP.
The explanation was that the phrase "establish LGP" seemed to refer to a process, that takes some amount of time, and that the phrase "obtain LGP" better denotes the moment that LGP exists, thus enhancing the concept of LGP regarding actions that are legal/illegal from that point on.

As a player, at the time, having officiated for several years, I was challenged by an opponent regarding whether I had been "set" when I took a charge. I offered him the use of my books, which were in my gym bag, and bet him he couldn't find the word "set" in the Rules book. After several minutes of frantically scouring the book, he threw it on the bench in frustration. Oh, and he didn't pay the bet, either.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Oh, and he didn't pay the bet, either.

Don't feel bad. A 15 year veteran official owes me 40 bucks that I'll never see. 20 because he thought long sleeve undershirts were illegal and 20 because he thought when the defense violated first on a free throw a violation by the shooter was ignored.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I am one of those old timers that WILL call the charge.

I guess that wasn't you I saw last month. I took a drive to a different part of the state to see a game, and saw a defender crashed into while stationary and having LGP under the backboard. The old-timer called a block.

[Pantherdreams]

How much of this is really that all of the myths re: block charge (whether invented or adaptations to an old rule) result in the charge not being called.

- Defender has to be stationary.
- Defener cannot be moving.
- Defender can't be too deep.

You never hear myths esposing making it easier to draw charges. The reality is that most players, coaches and a lot of officals whether just using rules or applying myths feel like the number of conditions that have to be met in order for it to be a charge simply mean most plays aren't charges. Therefore they want/expect all close plays to the naked eye to go to the offense.


ON the flip side:

I work with a lot of guys who no call a lot more than I am comfortable no calling but when in Rome. THat being said I feel like crews I work on (myself included) tend to be more often sure that we know its a block than being sure we know its a charge. So when I look back at tape to judge performance if forced to make a call in areas I let go/no called I would have more PC's or borderline PC's on my no calls then I would blocks.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

How much of this is really that all of the myths re: block charge (whether invented or adaptations to an old rule) result in the charge not being called.
- Defender has to be stationary.
- Defener cannot be moving.

That's why we have "The List":

A defensive player does not have to remain stationary to take a charge. A defender may turn away or duck to absorb contact, provided he or she has already established legal guarding position, which is both feet on the playing court and facing the opponent. The defender can always move backwards or sideways to maintain a legal guarding position and may even have one or both feet off the floor when contact occurs. That player may legally rise vertically. If the defender is moving forward, then the contact is caused by the defender, which is a blocking foul.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I guess that wasn't you I saw last month. I took a drive to a different part of the state to see a game, and saw a defender crashed into while stationary and having LGP under the backboard. The old-timer called a block.

I would actually expect this call more from newbies who have NBA/NCAA games they watch on TV in their head instead of the NFHS rules . . . one of the joys of CYO middle school hoops in our area is we ahve such a wide variety of refs some who know (at least mostly) the rules and some who call based on whatever they've seen on TV.

Very, very fw seem to have a clue on charges -- perhaps becuase defenders playing for a charge are few and far between at that point and they aren't watching for it . . . but if I had a nickel for every "block" that was more of a "failed to get out of the way of the out of control driver" . . .

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

I would actually expect this call more from newbies who have NBA/NCAA games they watch on TV in their head instead of the NFHS rules . . . one of the joys of CYO middle school hoops in our area is we ahve such a wide variety of refs some who know (at least mostly) the rules and some who call based on whatever they've seen on TV.

Very, very fw seem to have a clue on charges -- perhaps becuase defenders playing for a charge are few and far between at that point and they aren't watching for it . . . but if I had a nickel for every "block" that was more of a "failed to get out of the way of the out of control driver" . . .

You're not going to get the cream of the crop in these games - more the sludge from the bottom. And the coaches and parents don't know the rules either. There's nothing to gain from reffing these games if you're an experienced official.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by Smitty

There's nothing to gain from reffing these games if you're an experienced official.

Unless you can help train up-and-coming newbies... much easier to teach 'em the right way right away than try to break bad habits later.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Unless you can help train up-and-coming newbies... much easier to teach 'em the right way right away than try to break bad habits later.

If I had a choice, CYO middle school ball would be one of my last choices to train anyone. They likely don't have a decent pool of officials in the first place, and in order to have the vast majority of that pool be competent, you'd have to pay them a decent amount of money. It's just not likely on all kinds of fronts.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Smitty

If I had a choice, CYO middle school ball would be one of my last choices to train anyone. They likely don't have a decent pool of officials in the first place, and in order to have the vast majority of that pool be competent, you'd have to pay them a decent amount of money. It's just not likely on all kinds of fronts.

I can train officials much better at high school games. There are more standards. There are procedures that must be followed. What is expected at one school is expected at another school anywhere in the state of Illinois for example. I might have 15 different standards or leagues working a middle/junior high contest.

There is a reason we do not run a single high school camp at a middle school game or contest is involved.

I will gladly pass if the goal is to train someone. I would have to be doing it for the easy money first and then training a distant 100 on the list of 100.

Peace

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by Smitty

You're not going to get the cream of the crop in these games - more the sludge from the bottom. And the coaches and parents don't know the rules either. There's nothing to gain from reffing these games if you're an experienced official.

Oh, I'm well aware of that!! (And I try really hard not to get upset at the bonehead calls -- gets hard when kids get hammered and refs are oblivious, but really, I try!) In our CYO end of year play-offs, when we get to the final rounds, we sometimes see a quality HS team come in to do those games . . . which is really appreciated -- it's fun to see a three-man team of "real" officils who come in and treat the game seriously with teamwork, etc. (Indeed, in the coaches training, we were warned not to expect good referees but to bear with them . . . .)

On the lemons-to-lemonaid side, it gives us the opportunity to teach the kids that they have to adapt to the officials and figure out what is a foul today without getting hung up on what it was last game . . .

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

There's nothing to gain from reffing these games if you're an experienced official.

What is there to gain from calling any game? I don't get this. Whatever the level, if you're available and you're asked, if you want to go, go, and if you don't, don't go.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What is there to gain from calling any game? I don't get this. Whatever the level, if you're available and you're asked, if you want to go, go, and if you don't, don't go.

For an experienced official, a CYO Middle School game offers nothing that will make that official better in any faze of the game. I think you'd have to reach pretty far to say that this represents an opportunity to "see plays" and learn anything. There's very little structure as there is in school district middle school games. If you want to go work these games, knock yourself out.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Smitty

For an experienced official, a CYO Middle School game offers nothing that will make that official better in any faze of the game. I think you'd have to reach pretty far to say that this represents an opportunity to "see plays" and learn anything. There's very little structure as there is in school district middle school games. If you want to go work these games, knock yourself out.

Agree whole-heartedly. There are just some games I will not do. My AAU assignors know that I will not volunteer my services for any games below 12 years old. I also no longer do any youth or adult rec leagues or military intramurals. Way too easy for me to get into bad habits when working games I have no interest in doing, so I stay away from them.