20 Second disqualification count and FT

[Nevadaref]

Billy, I've seen instruction for both ways over the years. I really don't know what the current take is or if it matters. One such ruling is in the past interps thread on this site.

[Rich1]

I believe the prudent way to handle this is to first replace the disqualified player and then allow for other substitutions like you would at other times. I would not call in other subs for either team before the replacement is identified because it could create confusion. The purpose of td 20 second timer is to specifically deal with replacing the DQ'd player and nothing else happens until that's done.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

The purpose of td 20 second timer is to specifically deal with replacing the DQ'd player and nothing else happens until that's done.

Sounds good, practical, and rational, but is it an actual NFHS rule, or just another local interpretation, or mechanic?

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sounds good, practical, and rational, but is it an actual NFHS rule, or just another local interpretation, or mechanic?

Its neither. It seems as though there is no clear cut and official guide to how this should be handled and that seems to be the best way in my view until further clarification from above my pay grade. Also, I employ that procedure when dealing with a DQ replacement when a 20 second count is needed. Most of the time coaches get in a sub right away for injuries and 5th fouls so we usually don't even get to start the clock.

[Raymond]

we are also not supposed to grant a timeout until after the replacement is beckoned. not sure where that is written.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

we are also not supposed to grant a timeout until after the replacement is beckoned. not sure where that is written.

5-8-3b

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

we are also not supposed to grant a timeout until after the replacement is beckoned. not sure where that is written.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

5-8-3b

Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:
Grants a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out,
such request being granted only when: The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s),
or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is
available and required.

The "don't grant a timeout rule" is very clear. Why is the "don't beckon substitutes rule" not clear? Because it doesn't exist? If it's not illegal, then it must be legal.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

It seems as though there is no clear cut and official guide to how this should be handled and that seems to be the best way in my view until further clarification from above my pay grade.

Is the NFHS above your pay grade?

2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B1 is injured to the point that bench personnel are beckoned to the court. After B1 has been safely moved to the bench, Team B's head coach is notified that a substitute is required and instructs the timer to begin the 20-second replacement interval. Just as the interval begins, two substitutes from Team A approach the scorer's table to enter the game. RULING: Substitutes from either team may enter the game during this dead-ball period until the officials are ready to put the ball in play. The replacement interval is only for the substitute required for B1. If an eligible substitute does not report for B1 by the end of 20 seconds, a technical foul is assessed directly to the Team B head coach. (3-3-1d; 3-3-5; 10-5-3 Penalty)

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS
SITUATION 3: A5 is called for a fifth foul. The proper official notifies the head coach and instructs the timer to begin timing the replacement interval. After the 20-second warning horn and before the required substitute for A5 approaches the scorer’s table, (a) B6 and B7 report to the official scorer; (b) A6, who is replacing A1 reports to the official scorer; or (c) A3 requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the properly reported substitutes shall be permitted to enter the game. In (c), a time-out shall not be granted while a replacement for A5 is pending. (3-3-1d; 5-8-3b)

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is the NFHS above your pay grade?

2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B1 is injured to the point that bench personnel are beckoned to the court. After B1 has been safely moved to the bench, Team B's head coach is notified that a substitute is required and instructs the timer to begin the 20-second replacement interval. Just as the interval begins, two substitutes from Team A approach the scorer's table to enter the game. RULING: Substitutes from either team may enter the game during this dead-ball period until the officials are ready to put the ball in play. The replacement interval is only for the substitute required for B1. If an eligible substitute does not report for B1 by the end of 20 seconds, a technical foul is assessed directly to the Team B head coach. (3-3-1laed ot red; 3-3-5; 10-5-3 Penalty)

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS
SITUATION 3: A5 is called for a fifth foul. The proper official notifies the head coach and instructs the timer to begin timing the replacement interval. After the 20-second warning horn and before the required substitute for A5 approaches the scorer’s table, (a) B6 and B7 report to the official scorer; (b) A6, who is replacing A1 reports to the official scorer; or (c) A3 requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the properly reported substitutes shall be permitted to enter the game. In (c), a time-out shall not be granted while a replacement for A5 is pending. (3-3-1d; 5-8-3b)

Agree that subs can be beckoned in at anytime during this process but am holding on to the fact that I get to decide when to beckon them. If all is going well, coach isn't a problem, and bringing them in now won't create confusion then bring 'em in. But if I feel the situation dictates that we be certain who is subbing for who or that the coach might want to play games then I have no problem making them all wait at the table for a few more seconds. Likewise, in some situations it might make sense to get the waiting subs in asap to make it easier to deal with the coach and the replacement procedure.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Agree that subs can be beckoned in at anytime during this process ... in some situations it might make sense to get the waiting subs in asap to make it easier to deal with the coach and the replacement procedure.

We are in full agreement.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Billy, I've seen instruction for both ways over the years. I really don't know what the current take is or if it matters. One such ruling is in the past interps thread on this site.

2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B1 is injured to the point that bench personnel are beckoned to the court. After B1 has been safely moved to the bench, Team B's head coach is notified that a substitute is required and instructs the timer to begin the 20-second replacement interval. Just as the interval begins, two substitutes from Team A approach the scorer's table to enter the game. RULING: Substitutes from either team may enter the game during this dead-ball period until the officials are ready to put the ball in play. The replacement interval is only for the substitute required for B1. If an eligible substitute does not report for B1 by the end of 20 seconds, a technical foul is assessed directly to the Team B head coach. (3-3-1d; 3-3-5; 10-5-3 Penalty)

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS
SITUATION 3: A5 is called for a fifth foul. The proper official notifies the head coach and instructs the timer to begin timing the replacement interval. After the 20-second warning horn and before the required substitute for A5 approaches the scorer’s table, (a) B6 and B7 report to the official scorer; (b) A6, who is replacing A1 reports to the official scorer; or (c) A3 requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the properly reported substitutes shall be permitted to enter the game. In (c), a time-out shall not be granted while a replacement for A5 is pending. (3-3-1d; 5-8-3b)

2002-03 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS
SITUATION 3: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1;10-5-1d; 5-8-3b)

2000-01 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 7: A6 and A7 report to the table as substitutes to enter the game. B5 commits his/her fifth personal foul. A4 goes to the free-throw line to shoot two free throws. B6 replaces B5 before A4 shoots the first free throw. A6 and A7 are also beckoned to come into the game. RULING: The official was correct in beckoning A6 and A7 to come with B6. When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game. (3-3-ic)

Two (red) to one (blue). Do we go with the majority, or the most recent interpretation(s), which, in this case, both point in the same direction?

bob jenkins: A actual rule citation (not annual interpretations with conflicting interpretations) would be greatly appreciated. I would really like to know the correct interpretation of "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in". I'm only leaning toward that it's an incorrect interpretation. I would like to be convinced otherwise.