Fan Ejection

[PAlbc]

Not an official, but looking for input from officials on proper procedure.

Background info.
PA Boys V game, late 3rd quarter. Referee gives T (Visiting team B) for hanging on the rim after a dunk. While not the most egregious infraction it was more than enough to warrant a call (no safety issues and definite chin up motion before letting go).

Fan of Team B, who has been seen joking with at least 1 other member of the 3 person crew throughout the game, obviously does not like the call. He is sitting center court, 1st row, directly across from scorers table.

Referee in question has the ball to inbound for start of 4th quarter (obviously positioned right near fan in question). Referee stops, crosses court to table and asks for game manager and indicates the fan needs to be removed. Ok, game manager attempts to go do just that, fan refuses.

Meanwhile they restart game play (amusing side note, official on table side of court was talking to fans when they eventually did inbound to start 4th quarter, had to be told by Team B coach that game had started). Game manager, and now District Facilities Manager (he is there because his son is a player for JV Team A), continues to ask person to leave. Other fans of Team B begin defending him and verbally abusing the district personnel. Police are called but don't arrive until the fan has left (1 minute left in the game, with outcome decided) on his own. One of the other fans in question ended up getting more grilling by the police than the fan who instigated the issue.

I feel the official put the school personnel in a tough spot by demanding the ejection and then ignoring the situation. Should the official have held play until fan left (or at least moved from center court)? Since most districts do not let their game workers physically touch someone to remove them, does this request not just ask for verbal confrontations to continue (now with school personnel instead of official)? At least if the official holds play, then there is pressure for the fan to leave on his own (rather than police).

Please note, there had been no prior complaint by the official in question about the fan prior to removal being requested.

Just curious what other officials would do, or if there is specific procedures that should be followed if an fan removal is requested.

Thanks.

[MD Longhorn]

Other officials would not be joking with anyone in the stands at any point in this story.

I have no idea what I would expect from the jokers you describe, so it's hard to say what most would do differently, given that the rest of this would never happen before the point you're asking about.

But if an official has a fan removed, they should not start until that fan is indeed removed.

[Tio]

Sounds like quite a mess.

The first question I would ask is: did the fan need to be removed? We have to understand there will be some verbal abuse from fans especially in emotionally charged games. We need to have a thick skin and in my experience, ignoring verbal abuse is the best tactic to get them to stop. If they won't stop or the abuse becomes vulgar or personal in nature, the first thing I would do is have him moved to another seat. If he is going to not behave in the front row, moving to the back of the gym is a good way to get him out of sight (and hearing distance). This might be a nice compromise.

If you decide he needs to leave the gym, there is no way you should resume play until the fan has vacated. If the fan refuses to leave, I tell the home coach that if the fan doesn't leave he will cost him points (technical foul). By rule you can penalize the home team with an administrative technical foul for fan behavior. This is not something that should be used except in the rarest of circumstances. If you say something, there is a good chance the coach will be motivated to get the unruly fan out of the gym ASAP.

As far as professionalism of your partner, I don't think this deserves a response. I would probably inform your assignor what happened and that you didn't feel the official exhibited proper professionalism during the game and leave it at that. The assignor can choose to act on it if he chooses.

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by Tio

If they won't stop or the abuse becomes vulgar or personal in nature, the first thing I would do is have him moved to another seat. If he is going to not behave in the front row, moving to the back of the gym is a good way to get him out of sight (and hearing distance). This might be a nice compromise.

This not being the same as a kindergarten classroom, I think this would be a very bad idea. (All you're going to do is humiliate him more than if he were removed by GM. Just think about how he'll behave then...) You've got NO authority to move him to another seat. Either he goes or stays but at that point he's GM's (and maybe the police's) problem.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rooster

This not being the same as a kindergarten classroom, I think this would be a very bad idea. (All you're going to do is humiliate him more than if he were removed by GM. Just think about how he'll behave then...) You've got NO authority to move him to another seat. Either he goes or stays but at that point he's GM's (and maybe the police's) problem.

If it's borderline behavior, I'll just have GM address it. I won't pay attention to how they address it, and it may be something as simple as a quick chat or just sitting in that area for a while.

If the behavior is bad enough that I'm having to ask GM to remove someone, then moving him to another seat is not acceptable. If I find out that's all that was done, I'll include all the information in my report to my assigner and the state.

[Mark Padgett]

Many years ago (I have to take my shoes off to count how many) I was working a game for our local rec league. I think it was 8th grade boys. One of the dads just wouldn't quit yelling at me and my partner. At one break, I told him to knock it off or else he would have to leave the premises, and if he didn't do that, I would call the game off and make sure everyone knew it was because of him.

He yelled at me again and said he was going to "report" me to the league's head of officials. I just smiled and replied, "Uh, that would be me." He then said he was going to "report" me to the President of the league. I smiled again and said, "Uh, that would also be me. Anyone else you want to talk to?"

He left.

[BryanV21]

My initial response would be that that I wouldn't hold up the game, as that would only add more unwanted attention to the situation. However, I'm curious to read what others would do.

Either way, hopefully the school/game manager learns from this situation, and is better prepared for handling it in the future.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

My initial response would be that that I wouldn't hold up the game, as that would only add more unwanted attention to the situation. However, I'm curious to read what others would do.

Either way, hopefully the school/game manager learns from this situation, and is better prepared for handling it in the future.

That was my initial thought. Unless I felt like there would be a safety or other issue by resuming, I would have probably resumed play once game management got involved. Never had to remove a fan before though, so maybe it would be better to wait.

[crosscountry55]

Wow. My first thought is that there was way too much unprofessionalism among the crew with respect to interactions with fans, especially for a varsity game. There's no place for that. If someone calls out to an official to get their attention, at most the official simply turns and nods his/her head, then gets his/her attention back to the court. Professionalism by itself might have prevented this situation from occurring.

As for asking to have a particular fan removed, if I ever did that, it would have to be so obvious to everyone in the gym that he needed to leave that the whole building would be waiving him goodbye. Short of that, just ignore and move on. If a fan is truly getting out of control, I hope that game management or contract security/police would take care of it.

Speaking of contract security, might be a good idea to have some the next time these two teams play.

[OrStBballRef]

Let game administration know the fan needs to go and then inbound the ball. Only reason why I'm holding it up is if he/she (fan) is on the court and interfering with play. My focus is on the 10 players between the lines and not the fans in the stands.

So long as game management is involved there is no way I'm even thinking of having the home coach get involved or threaten with a T. Not in a varsity game with game management/AD/security around.

There is no good reason to be joking with the fans. It can be looked at as pretty unprofessional. It looks bad especially if a coach needs to remind a official the game is starting back up again Sounds like the guilty official feels to be a 'man of the people' that's great just not during the game.

[refinks]

Tough situation all the way around. But here's my take.

I've only had to do it once, but if I ask for a fan to be removed, we are not starting until the fan is gone. Same thing in baseball (of which I've had to have several fans removed at the little league level.) I may be in the minority on this, but that's the way it is. If game administration can't remove the fan, then guess what, we are waiting on the police to arrive and deal with the situation, even if it takes an hour. I would be hard pressed to call a forfeit in this situation (I know officials that would), but if I had to call an administrative T, I would. I'd be sure to give the teams head coach plenty of chance to deal with the problem though.

As for communicating with fans, I've seen it done before at all levels, including varsity, in my association. I personally don't have a problem with it as long as it's not interrupting the flow of the game. Generally when I see it happen is in pregame or between quarters. I try not to acknowledge fans during the game, I may have a quick chat or a quick hello before the game if it's somebody I recognize or know, but during the game, I try to be all business on the court. I've worked with partners that I've had to blow my whistle at and tell them "Let's Go!" because they were too busy associationing with fans. To me, that's crossing the line.

[BryanV21]

I don't think I'd ever give a team a tech for how their fans are behaving. It's not in their control, nor should it be their responsibility. If anybody is to blame for not taking care of the fans it's game administrators, and in that case I'll let my assignor know of the issue and let them handle things.

And besides a quick "hello" or head nod, officials should not be communicating with fans. It's not only unprofessional, but can lead to coaches and/or players from the opposing team to feel they are being unfairly treated. And although it may not be true, it can lead to some bad situations.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I don't think I'd ever give a team a tech for how their fans are behaving. It's not in their control, nor should it be their responsibility. If anybody is to blame for not taking care of the fans it's game administrators, and in that case I'll let my assignor know of the issue and let them handle things.

Ever? Not even a fan stepping on the floor or throwing things?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Ever? Not even a fan stepping on the floor or throwing things?

Okay, I'm sure there are extreme cases when a tech is deserved, but I was thinking more along the lines of what happened in the the OP. Meaning the problem(s) didn't spill onto the court and disturb the game itself.

[refinks]

To add to my post, there is a difference between telling game administration to deal with a fan and telling game administration to eject a fan. Normally if I have to tell game administration to deal with a fan, it gets done and we have no more issues. The one time I had to tell game administration to remove a fan was because said administration didn't want to handle the issue without being told. Even after telling them to get the fan removed, it still took about 3 warnings of calling the police (we don't always have uniformed officers at games in our area, this is a case that we didn't) the AD finally had the fan removed. I hope I never have to go through that again.

The aftermath of this incident was that I filed my report with my state association and my assignor, was reassigned from my other 2 dates at that location that season, and said AD was not there the following year when I went back, nor have I seen him at any other school in or near my area.