Jump Ball Violation

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jerkins

And you can catch the ball after it's been legally touched -- so having some time run off the clock is possible.

Agree (illegally catching the ball after a legal touch), with no reset of the game clock back to 8:00.

However, if the first touch is an illegal catch, and if the clock did mistakenly run down to 7:59, then the game clock should reset to 8:00. After all, the umpire (or nontossing official) should have never dropped their hand to chop in time, the hand should have remained up due to the first touch (catch) signaling the violation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree (illegally catching the ball after a legal touch), with no reset of the game clock back to 8:00.

However, if the first touch is an illegal catch, and if the clock did mistakenly run down to 7:59, then the game clock should reset to 8:00. After all, the umpire (or nontossing official) should have never dropped their hand to chop in time, the hand should have remained up due to the first touch (catch) signaling the violation.

I don't agree. That touch is legal. The catching happens to violate a jumpball restriction, not a legal means of contacting the ball. The jumper didn't punch the ball. That would be an illegal touch.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I don't agree. That touch is legal. The catching happens to violate a jumpball restriction, not a legal means of contacting the ball. The jumper didn't punch the ball. That would be an illegal touch.

I respectfully disagree with you. The catching violates the jump ball rules, and is thus, illegal. Plus, a really good nontosser would have never chopped in the clock, so the mistaken timekeeper would have made a timing error, that should be corrected with definite knowledge.

How about touching the ball on the way up? Reset 7:59 to 8:00?

[Nevadaref]

A1 makes a throw-in pass to A2 from a spot on the sideline. The pass is on the outside of the imaginary boundary plane as it travels down the court parallel to the sideline. A2 catches the ball with his feet inbounds, but his arms extended over the out of bounds area.
Do you start the clock or not?

A3's throw-in pass is in the imaginary cylinder above the basket when B2 is the first player to touch it.
Start the clock or not?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A1 makes a throw-in pass to A2 from a spot on the sideline. The pass is on the outside of the imaginary boundary plane as it travels down the court parallel to the sideline. A2 catches the ball with his feet inbounds, but his arms extended over the out of bounds area.
Do you start the clock or not?

A3's throw-in pass is in the imaginary cylinder above the basket when B2 is the first player to touch it. Start the clock or not?

Great, thought provoking, questions Nevadaref. Thanks.

My interpretations, based on the rules: Start the clock in both situations.

5-9-4: If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the
ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by
the thrower.

I'm not quite sure why the NFHS states "touches, or is legally touched". To me, this seems like overkill, and it should be just "touches", or just "legally touches", based on the intent (I'm not even going to try to guess intent here) of the NFHS in this timing rule. "Touches" should take care of both legal, and illegal, touches, whereas, "legally touched" just takes care of legal touches. Why does the NFHS offer a choice here with the word "or"? If they wanted both legal, and illegal, touches to start the clock then they should have just gone with just he word "touches". If they wanted only legal touches to start the clock then they should have gone with just "legally touched". Again, why the choice? Why the "or?

That being said, let's go back to jump balls, where the rules specifically state "legally touched", and only "legally touched". To paraphrase my ninth grade Geometry teacher, Mr. Fiore, "if, and only if, legally touched". No if, ands, or buts; ors, nors, or fors.

5-9-2: If play is started or resumed by a jump, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.

Your move.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Great, thought provoking, questions Nevadaref. Thanks.

My interpretations, based on the rules: Start the clock in both situations.

5-9-4: If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the
ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by
the thrower.

I'm not quite sure why the NFHS states "touches, or is legally touched". To me, this seems like overkill, and it should be just "touches", or just "legally touches", based on the intent (I'm not even going to try to guess intent here) of the NFHS in this timing rule. "Touches" should take care of both legal, and illegal, touches, whereas, "legally touched" just takes care of legal touches. Why does the NFHS offer a choice here with the word "or"? If they wanted both legal, and illegal, touches to start the clock then they should have just gone with just he word "touches". If they wanted only legal touches to start the clock then they should have gone with just "legally touched". Again, why the choice? Why the "or?

That being said, let's go back to jump balls, where the rules specifically state "legally touched", and only "legally touched". To paraphrase my ninth grade Geometry teacher, Mr. Fiore, "if, and only if, legally touched". No if, ands, or buts; ors, nors, or fors.

5-9-2: If play is started or resumed by a jump, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.

Your move.

And a violation causes the ball to become dead, which stops the clock, so why did you start it?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

And a violation causes the ball to become dead, which stops the clock, so why did you start it?

On a throwin, we are advised, by rule, to start the clock when the ball touches a player on the court, either legally, or illegally. If it's an illegal throwin, then I guess that we just stop the clock (dead ball) as soon as possible. Hey. I don't make up these rules. Don't kill the messenger. After all, it's the NFHS that we're dealing with here, not a Mensa International chapter.

Dueling rules:

5-8-1-C:Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official: Signals: A violation.

5-9-4: If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.

I would actually prefer that 5-9-4 have the words, "touches, or" deleted, so that it reads, "If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball is legally touched by a player on the court after it is released by the thrower". The we could treat the throwin violations (as discussed above) the same as the jumpball violations (as discussed above) and reset the clock back to the original time if it was started in error.