Getting picked up very young

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

Well Bad news Referee, I did not intend to over-simplify the vocational progression but rather to inform the OP that there is no need to be "baffled" by a 19 y.o reffing games when the players are 20+ yrs old (or older). To emphasize that the main point of my post was that Officiating has become so Standardized that one can enter the vocation without having to submit their time and effort in the classical approach towards "moving up". Really, a ref who wants to 'move up' could really waste a lot of their effective years/prime time by going the classical route. Which may not even pan out.
Pay for the camps, get the instruction from relevant clinicians, and meet assignors, impress them with practice games---and one can "move up". Now, granted you may have to travel further to get prime time games (e.g., >40 miles to get a varsity game or college level game) once you are in the network. This is the modern era way to move up in the Officiating vocation.
In my career I've seen folks who did 3rd grade girls for the ymca, then in 2 yrs they were doing hi-level JUCO games in Garden City,KS and Hutchinson, KS.

Yes you have to go to camps, but you also have to know what you are doing. Many officials have no clue what they are doing. You can go to all the right camps and not be talented enough to work that level.

And honestly, I do not know many people that worked middle school first, then high school freshman, the a sophomore game on your way to JV then varsity. A lot of officials work high school and then fill in with middle school early in their career anyway. But I would never recommend someone just go to a camp when they have not seen enough plays or have not been trained properly. John Adams years ago before he was the NCAA Coordinator said to a camp of officials, "You either have it or you don't" when he was talking about judgment. I see a lot of officials that just do not have it and it is not easy to develop if you do not put in the time and the work.

Peace

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes you have to go to camps, but you also have to know what you are doing. Many officials have no clue what they are doing. You can go to all the right camps and not be talented enough to work that level.
John Adams years ago before he was the NCAA Coordinator said to a camp of officials, "You either have it or you don't" when he was talking about judgment. I see a lot of officials that just do not have it and it is not easy to develop if you do not put in the time and the work.

Peace

*Ahhh another sagely John adams reference, but I must disagree when he is stating it in such absolute terms--you either have it or you don't. Seems a bit..shall I say, deterministic. But hey....

And yes, I am in complete agreement with your point that it must be "developed over time" and there are "refs who do not know what they are doing". But all of that is beside the point of the OP post...they were just simply asking "how to move up when you are so young". Which I have already said is very possible by the procedures I've already described in the above post.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*Ahhh another sagely John adams reference, but I must disagree when he is stating it in such absolute terms--you either have it or you don't. Seems a bit..shall I say, deterministic. But hey....

And yes, I am in complete agreement with your point that it must be "developed over time" and there are "refs who do not know what they are doing". But all of that is beside the point of the OP post...they were just simply asking "how to move up when you are so young". Which I have already said is very possible by the procedures I've already described in the above post.

Yes it is very possible to move up. You can move up if someone gives you a shot. I just think you do not want to make people feel that they are just going to move up just because they go to the right camp. It just is not that simple for many of us, that is all. Usually it takes several trips to a camp and see how you improve to get a shot at all, even at the JUCO level. Also this might be part of the country you are in and how competitive it is. Here, you will complete in a much larger area and have to come in contact with officials that work D1. You are not just kicking them off to the side to hire a 20 year old. It is possible, but I think the point that BNR and me are trying to suggest, you still have to work and still have to put in the time and a lot of young guys are not going to do a lot beyond going to a camp.

Peace

[BillyMac]

We've got a lot of pretty good junior varsity officials that get tired waiting to get a full high school varsity schedule and move over to low division college, or junior college, basketball without ever working a regular high school varsity schedule. These young guys take advantage of our local board's high school training opportunities, and then go to a lot of college camps (often with scholarships provided by our local board) in the off season, and are ready, and willing, to travel (in our New England winters) to assignments once the season starts.

This type of movement is a lot more common now that it was twenty, or thirty, years ago when the only guys that moved up to college were the better high school varsity officials.

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

We've got a lot of pretty good junior varsity officials that get tired waiting to get a full high school varsity schedule and move over to low division college, or junior college, basketball without ever working a regular high school varsity schedule. These young guys take advantage of our local board's high school training opportunities, and then go to a lot of college camps in the off season, and are ready, and willing, to travel (in our New England winters) to assignments once the season starts.

This type of movement is a lot more common now that it was twenty, or thirty, years ago when the only guys that moved up to college were the better high school varsity officials.

*Very astute point Billy Macs. And that post proved my initial point: the days of working one's way up by the traditional route will burn up a LOT of your useful and optimal reffing time. No need to labor incessantly at the lower ranks and be content with watching varsity officials who are past their prime get games over you when you do not even get a chance especially after paying dues etc..for years. Now, granted you may have to travel further out in the district to get those games--but hey my Mother never said it was going to be easy

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

Very astute point Billy Mac.

Thanks Dad.

(Astute is good? Right?)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*Very astute point Billy Macs. And that post proved my initial point: the days of working one's way up by the traditional route will burn up a LOT of your useful and optimal reffing time. No need to labor incessantly at the lower ranks and be content with watching varsity officials who are past their prime get games over you when you do not even get a chance especially after paying dues etc..for years. Now, granted you may have to travel further out in the district to get those games--but hey my Mother never said it was going to be easy

Honestly, I do not think that was ever really the case. I have heard of a lot of people getting college games and the supervisors did not care if you were working anything before. That sounds more like what used to say, but never was the case.

Just look at the careers of some of the top buys that have been working D1 for 20 or 30 years and many of them did not even work a HS varsity game before they worked a college game. I can think of a couple of people that made that clear in Referee Magazine when they talked about their college or pro careers.

Peace

[BryanV21]

Sure, they are going to be people that just have "it" when it comes to being a good official, and therefore don't need to spend 10 or so years to get to a higher level. Those guys just need to get their name out there and meet the right people.

However, in general, I wouldn't tell a prospective official that knowing the right people, and going to the right camps, are the way to get to the upper levels.

I think a lot of it depends on where you are, too. I'm in a fairly large city with multiple associations, each of which has hundreds of members. Climbing the ladder around here is much tougher than... say... a rural area in a smaller state, where the need for officials is much greater.