Freedom of Movement 10-6-12

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I showed all three codes and their language that they are all similar in rules language. But the issue is not language in the rule, the issue is interpretation of how this is applied. And you know darn well that interpretations often drive how we call the game or how a rule is enforced. Now if you cannot see that, then that is why will never agree on this issue.

Peace

Here's the issue as I see it...some on here are using the NCAA-M point c, which is not the same thing as NCAA-W point c. And the NCAA-W point c and the NF point d ARE the same thing. If you cannot see that, then you are correct - we will never agree on this issue.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Here's the issue as I see it...some on here are using the NCAA-M point c, which is not the same thing as NCAA-W point c. And the NCAA-W point c and the NF point d ARE the same thing. If you cannot see that, then you are correct - we will never agree on this issue.

I am not using anything. The play we are talking about is an interpretation not mentioned in any rule. Neither of these three codes addresses the play we were talking about that came from the NCAAW's side of the game. The NF has two plays that are new with the Casebook and I do not recall a single interpretation from the NF addressed that NCAAW's play that is to be called a foul. So to say they are the same is a bastardization of the conversation. And it is the interpretation that if you put hands on a player multiple times in NCAAM, that is a foul. But the issue that is never addressed or mentioned is if that time frame is extensive or at different times. See as BNR said, it is possible in the high school game to have a touch and a minute later have another touch. Yes it could be that different in time as HS unlike NCAA codes does not have a shot clock. I will not work 10 percent of my games with a shot clock. So I am not sure it is appropriate to assume that what the NCAAW suggests applies without any comment from the NF when the situation can drastically be different based on the nature of the NF game.

Peace

[Raymond]

Still waiting: 1:56, B1 touches A1 in the backcourt. A1 dribbles in the frontcourt and coaches tells him to hold for last shot. A1 continues to dribble, and Team B pulls back. 0:15 B1 comes out to challenge and touches A1. By rule that's a foul?

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Still waiting: 1:56, B1 touches A1 in the backcourt. A1 dribbles in the frontcourt and coaches tells him to hold for last shot. A1 continues to dribble, and Team B pulls back. 0:15 B1 comes out to challenge and touches A1. By rule that's a foul?

Yes, the way the rule is written, that is a foul. Not saying I agree with the logic.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm still waiting on you to point me to where the NFHS has said they want 2 separate touches committed 30/40/50' and 10/15/20 seconds apart to be considered a foul. I'm sure it's somewhere near their "team control is not really team control" edict.

Originally Posted by OKREF

Yes, the way the rule is written, that is a foul. Not saying I agree with the logic.

If the opportunity presents itself, you mind bringing that play to your local and/or state interpreter?

[Raymond]

Previous mention by NFHS of multiple touching by defender:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post550274


2001-2002 Interps Part 2.
SITUATION 17: Al is slowly dribbling the ball up the court. Bl is lightly “tagging” Al, but is not impeding Al’s forward motion. The official warns Bl to “keep hands off.” RULING: This is a foul. There is no warning. (10-6-1)

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Yes, the way the rule is written, that is a foul. Not saying I agree with the logic.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If the opportunity presents itself, you mind bringing that play to your local and/or state interpreter?

Had a meeting last night. I asked our area coordinator about this discussion. His take was....

By the literal wording of the rule, it would be a foul. He then said there was no way he was calling a foul for the second touch that happened in the frontcourt, 10 seconds after the first touch in the backcourt.

He also said that if you have a touch and then the ball handler and the defensive player get outside the 6 FT legal guarding requirements and then re-engage and there is a second touch, he didn't think he would call a foul for that second touch. Unless it affected RSBQ.

[JRutledge]

I think to keep trying to make this point that the literal wording of the rule is silly. Either that was the intent of the rule or it was not.

I will give some of you credit, at least you are asking people you work for instead of just taking some interpretation from the NCAA and considering it law.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Had a meeting last night. I asked our area coordinator about this discussion. His take was....

By the literal wording of the rule, it would be a foul. He then said there was no way he was calling a foul for the second touch that happened in the frontcourt, 10 seconds after the first touch in the backcourt.

He also said that if you have a touch and then the ball handler and the defensive player get outside the 6 FT legal guarding requirements and then re-engage and there is a second touch, he didn't think he would call a foul for that second touch. Unless it affected RSBQ.

Appreciate it.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Rich

We had someone from Referee at one of our meetings and let's just say he's very close to the process. He told us:

(1) There's no time element
(2) E-W vs. N-S doesn't matter
(3) There's no difference with respect to a player and where he has the ball. If he has the ball in the post, for example, and there's two touches or a touch with two hands, or an extended forearm -- it is a foul.

I expect there will be further clarification on all this. At least I hope there will be. Still, everything is local. A state's wishes will supersede the NFHS's 100% of the time.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Still waiting: 1:56, B1 touches A1 in the backcourt. A1 dribbles in the frontcourt and coaches tells him to hold for last shot. A1 continues to dribble, and Team B pulls back. 0:15 B1 comes out to challenge and touches A1. By rule that's a foul?

According to this

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Still waiting: 1:56, B1 touches A1 in the backcourt. A1 dribbles in the frontcourt and coaches tells him to hold for last shot. A1 continues to dribble, and Team B pulls back. 0:15 B1 comes out to challenge and touches A1. By rule that's a foul?

*The way I read this is that 1:56 - 0:51 = 1:04 time has elapsed since the A1 dribbler had been touched by B1 (defensive player). Also, when you described that B1 had been physically positioned at minimum 10 feet away from A1 (i.e., you said that Team B coach instructed team to "fall back") for a period of time = 1:04 (a long time) when there was no contact, then A1 had gone for 1:04 without ever have been 'touched' by B1. Also, I will infer from your description that the score difference was such that forcing Team A into the bonus by 'quick fouling' by Team B's coach was not considered strategic (i.e., no reason to delay an imminent defeat).
In this specific context, the game Official needs to consider "time" and "situation". I'm sorry, but I would not call a foul on a second touch that transpired 1:04 after the first 'touch' in this scenario. I admit that I would use common sense, so please crucify my post now