Freedom of Movement 10-6-12

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

The problem is that the NF rule and the NCAA-W rule is NOT different. Other than the order of the 4 points (a,b,c,and d) they are the same wording.

NCAAM 10-1-4:

The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a player with the ball:

a. Keeping a hand or forearm on an opponent;
b. Putting two hands on an opponent
c. Continually jabbing an opponent by extending an arm(s) and placing a hand or forearm on an opponent;
d. Using an arm bar to impede the progress of a dribbler.

NCAAW 10-1-4:

Art. 4. It is a foul when a defender contacts the ball handler/dribbler:
a. Anytime with two hands.
b. By placing a hand (front or back of the hand) on the ball handler/dribbler and keeping it on the ball handler/dribbler.
c. More than once with the same hand or with alternating hands; or
d. With an arm bar.

NF 10-6-12 says:

The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler:

a. Placing two hands on a dribbler
b. Placing an extended arm bar on a player.
c. Placing and keeping a hand on a dribbler
d. Contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands.

Not sure how all of these are the same. Looks like different wording to me.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

NCAAM 10-1-4:



NCAAW 10-1-4:



NF 10-6-12 says:



Not sure how all of these are the same. Looks like different wording to me.

Peace

Why did you add the NCAA-M rule again? The NF rule and the NCAA-W are the same. But you got me...I said the "wording" was the same when I should have said the rules were the same. Good on you.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Why did you add the NCAA-M rule again? The NF rule and the NCAA-W are the same. But you got me...I said the "wording" was the same when I should have said the rules were the same. Good on you.

I showed all three codes and their language that they are all similar in rules language. But the issue is not language in the rule, the issue is interpretation of how this is applied. And you know darn well that interpretations often drive how we call the game or how a rule is enforced. Now if you cannot see that, then that is why will never agree on this issue.

All three codes addresses two hands on the dribbler. NCAAW says "anytime" the NF says "placing" and NCAAM says "Putting."

All three addresses an "arm bar" and NCAAM addresses the placing of a "forearm."

All three codes address "placing hands" on a dribbler.

I am trying to figure out what is the same about NF that is not the same with NCAAM?

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I showed all three codes and their language that they are all similar in rules language. But the issue is not language in the rule, the issue is interpretation of how this is applied. And you know darn well that interpretations often drive how we call the game or how a rule is enforced. Now if you cannot see that, then that is why will never agree on this issue.

Peace

Here's the issue as I see it...some on here are using the NCAA-M point c, which is not the same thing as NCAA-W point c. And the NCAA-W point c and the NF point d ARE the same thing. If you cannot see that, then you are correct - we will never agree on this issue.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Here's the issue as I see it...some on here are using the NCAA-M point c, which is not the same thing as NCAA-W point c. And the NCAA-W point c and the NF point d ARE the same thing. If you cannot see that, then you are correct - we will never agree on this issue.

I am not using anything. The play we are talking about is an interpretation not mentioned in any rule. Neither of these three codes addresses the play we were talking about that came from the NCAAW's side of the game. The NF has two plays that are new with the Casebook and I do not recall a single interpretation from the NF addressed that NCAAW's play that is to be called a foul. So to say they are the same is a bastardization of the conversation. And it is the interpretation that if you put hands on a player multiple times in NCAAM, that is a foul. But the issue that is never addressed or mentioned is if that time frame is extensive or at different times. See as BNR said, it is possible in the high school game to have a touch and a minute later have another touch. Yes it could be that different in time as HS unlike NCAA codes does not have a shot clock. I will not work 10 percent of my games with a shot clock. So I am not sure it is appropriate to assume that what the NCAAW suggests applies without any comment from the NF when the situation can drastically be different based on the nature of the NF game.

Peace

[Raymond]

Still waiting: 1:56, B1 touches A1 in the backcourt. A1 dribbles in the frontcourt and coaches tells him to hold for last shot. A1 continues to dribble, and Team B pulls back. 0:15 B1 comes out to challenge and touches A1. By rule that's a foul?

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Still waiting: 1:56, B1 touches A1 in the backcourt. A1 dribbles in the frontcourt and coaches tells him to hold for last shot. A1 continues to dribble, and Team B pulls back. 0:15 B1 comes out to challenge and touches A1. By rule that's a foul?

Yes, the way the rule is written, that is a foul. Not saying I agree with the logic.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Rich

We had someone from Referee at one of our meetings and let's just say he's very close to the process. He told us:

(1) There's no time element
(2) E-W vs. N-S doesn't matter
(3) There's no difference with respect to a player and where he has the ball. If he has the ball in the post, for example, and there's two touches or a touch with two hands, or an extended forearm -- it is a foul.

I expect there will be further clarification on all this. At least I hope there will be. Still, everything is local. A state's wishes will supersede the NFHS's 100% of the time.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Still waiting: 1:56, B1 touches A1 in the backcourt. A1 dribbles in the frontcourt and coaches tells him to hold for last shot. A1 continues to dribble, and Team B pulls back. 0:15 B1 comes out to challenge and touches A1. By rule that's a foul?

According to this

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Still waiting: 1:56, B1 touches A1 in the backcourt. A1 dribbles in the frontcourt and coaches tells him to hold for last shot. A1 continues to dribble, and Team B pulls back. 0:15 B1 comes out to challenge and touches A1. By rule that's a foul?

*The way I read this is that 1:56 - 0:51 = 1:04 time has elapsed since the A1 dribbler had been touched by B1 (defensive player). Also, when you described that B1 had been physically positioned at minimum 10 feet away from A1 (i.e., you said that Team B coach instructed team to "fall back") for a period of time = 1:04 (a long time) when there was no contact, then A1 had gone for 1:04 without ever have been 'touched' by B1. Also, I will infer from your description that the score difference was such that forcing Team A into the bonus by 'quick fouling' by Team B's coach was not considered strategic (i.e., no reason to delay an imminent defeat).
In this specific context, the game Official needs to consider "time" and "situation". I'm sorry, but I would not call a foul on a second touch that transpired 1:04 after the first 'touch' in this scenario. I admit that I would use common sense, so please crucify my post now