Freedom of Movement 10-6-12

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich

Extended arm arm bar = foul.

Is that one an arm bar with both arms?

[Rich]

We had someone pretty close to all this at our association meeting last night.

There is no time or distance factor for the 2 touches. As long as the ball handler remains the ball handler and the defender is the same defender, one touch can be in the backcourt and one in the frontcourt and closely guarded is irrelevant -- it's a foul.

I'm not surprised that people are already looking for reasons to not call fouls -- it's why we have these automatics now in the first place, really.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich

We had someone pretty close to all this at our association meeting last night.

There is no time or distance factor for the 2 touches. As long as the ball handler remains the ball handler and the defender is the same defender, one touch can be in the backcourt and one in the frontcourt and closely guarded is irrelevant -- it's a foul.

I'm not surprised that people are already looking for reasons to not call fouls -- it's why we have these automatics now in the first place, really.

How did your group decide how the T is to know the C had the first touch already when the play crosses primaries?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Is that one an arm bar with both arms?

No, that would be a (2 x arm) bar.

[JRutledge]

Yeah, but if there is a clear separation between touches, then I think that is not the actual intent of the rule. The rule is to stop constant using of hands on a ball handler. If one touch happens in the back court and then 20 feet later there is a touch in the front court with a chasing defender, I am not calling that a foul just because there was a second touch. I am still using the guide of RSBQ to help me decide when these are fouls anyway. And I call as many of these fouls as anyone. I am just still going to use common sense and there still is the rule for incidental contact. If someone from my state wants to suggest otherwise, then I will possibly change that opinion. But as of last year, we were told about RSBQ extensively and these rules were our state's POE on the topic.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yeah, but if there is a clear separation between touches, then I think that is not the actual intent of the rule. The rule is to stop constant using of hands on a ball handler. If one touch happens in the back court and then 20 feet later there is a touch in the front court with a chasing defender, I am not calling that a foul just because there was a second touch. I am still using the guide of RSBQ to help me decide when these are fouls anyway. And I call as many of these fouls as anyone. I am just still going to use common sense and there still is the rule for incidental contact. If someone from my state wants to suggest otherwise, then I will possibly change that opinion. But as of last year, we were told about RSBQ extensively and these rules were our state's POE on the topic.

Peace

Jeff, You may not realize it but they're talking to you.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Jeff, You may not realized it but they're talking to you.

Well they are not talking to me, because our state and state administrator had already spoken about this a year ago with us. It was a statewide POE with the very same rules applied last year. There was even a Webinar to clarify the position from the Administrators in the sport. And we were calling more things than the NF suggested a year ago because that is stand or interpretation our state said how these situations should be called. And yes they used RSBQ (not my personal position) to describe how fouls should be called, along with the all other absolutes.

I know it is hard, but states have the right to make their position known. I have not heard anyone suggest that a touch in one area of the court means another touch in a completely different area of the court is a foul. I will wait for the video, but this discussion with all due respect is irrelevant to me as to what I will be calling.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well they are not talking to me, because our state and state administrator had already spoken about this a year ago with us. It was a statewide POE with the very same rules applied last year. There was even a Webinar to clarify the position from the Administrators in the sport. And we were calling more things than the NF suggested a year ago because that is stand or interpretation our state said how these situations should be called. And yes they used RSBQ (not my personal position) to describe how fouls should be called, along with the all other absolutes.

I know it is hard, but states have the right to make their position known. I have not heard anyone suggest that a touch in one area of the court means another touch in a completely different area of the court is a foul. I will wait for the video, but this discussion with all due respect is irrelevant to me as to what I will be calling.

Peace

We know. You'll do your own thing regardless of what the rules say. Not the first time.

BTW, I'm not talking about the well separated 1st and 2nd touch, just the use of RSBQ which the NFHS has basically said is not being applied correctly...that the player is being affected even though people are incorrectly justifying no calls under the guise of RSBQ. They're saying their RSBQ is being affected and people still are not calling it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We know. You'll do your own thing regardless of what the rules say. Not the first time.

BTW, I'm not talking about the well separated 1st and 2nd touch, just the use of RSBQ which the NFHS has basically said is not being applied correctly...that the player is being affected even though people are incorrectly justifying no calls under the guise of RSBQ. They're saying their RSBQ is being affected and people still are not calling it.

The use of RSBQ was referenced by our state basketball administrator (Boy's basketball to be specific). RSBQ was referenced in the State Rules Interpretation PowerPoint before the year (last year) when the state took a hard stance on these interpretations. It was talked about out of his mouth in the Webinar that the same person I referenced and it was talked about again by him at meetings throughout the state before and during the season. So no, it is not what I wanted to do or a personal interpretation, it was what they wanted us to do. I was even surprised when they used the language because it comes from high levels. But that is what they asked all clinicians to teach and repeat to their association membership and at camps, which I run from time to time.

Oh, and the NF when you contact them directly about an interpretation, they direct you to your state people for an interpretation. Oh, and this was before the rules changed once again the stance of the IHSA (similar to what happened to JAR when he contacted Ms. Wynn in the off season).

I know, I know, you want to tell everyone how the NF is the only body that can comment on rules and interpretations (silly rabbit). Just like my state has a different interpretation on uniforms (Board changed the policy and how the rule was interpreted about 4 years ago) or even had a policy about recognition of religious and special accommodations for those uniforms years before the NF even addressed the issue (it is in this year's NF PowerPoint, but the IHSA had the same policy for over 7 or 8 years based on situations that took place in this state).

So glad I do not have to listen to people like you about these things. You are not a member of the NF that gets to decide what states tell their officials and you obviously have no idea how different states take positions against the rules or interpretations of the National Federation based on your comments here. A similar situation even happened this year in football on the targeting rule and the free kick situations where my state took a different stance in order to bring clarity to a National Federation hole in their so-called new rules for this season.

And I must be doing something right, I advanced in the playoffs and one step from the highest level in my state (and I am a state clinician). So I must have no idea what I am talking about.

But hey, you know.

Peace