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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 09:14am
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Saving the ball to yourself?

I've tried looking for this question here and haven't found it. If it has been addressed earlier, my apologies for the double post.

The scenario is this: A ball is going out of bounds, a player chases the ball down, jumps in the air over the out of bounds line and throws the ball legally back into play. This is something we see all the time on all levels of basketball (i.e. player jumping into the crowd to save the ball). However, the thing i'm unclear about in this instance is whether that player who saved the ball is allowed to be the first to touch it after he throws it back in bounds i.e. saving the ball to himself?

I'd imagine no since in the act of saving the ball he is actually throwing a pass, and as everyone knows if you are the first person to touch the ball after throwing a pass you have committed a travel. I've tried looking for examples of it happening and haven't had any luck. Any insight regarding a ref's interpretation of this scenario will be greatly appreciated.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 09:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hzsa83 View Post
I've tried looking for this question here and haven't found it. If it has been addressed earlier, my apologies for the double post.

The scenario is this: A ball is going out of bounds, a player chases the ball down, jumps in the air over the out of bounds line and throws the ball legally back into play. This is something we see all the time on all levels of basketball (i.e. player jumping into the crowd to save the ball). However, the thing i'm unclear about in this instance is whether that player who saved the ball is allowed to be the first to touch it after he throws it back in bounds i.e. saving the ball to himself?

I'd imagine no since in the act of saving the ball he is actually throwing a pass, and as everyone knows if you are the first person to touch the ball after throwing a pass you have committed a travel. I've tried looking for examples of it happening and haven't had any luck. Any insight regarding a ref's interpretation of this scenario will be greatly appreciated.
The scenario is covered in the Case Book, 7.1.1 D, and is legal. The controlled toss is considered the start of a dribble.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 10:01am
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The issue is if you dribbled before and then picked it up with both hands and then threw the ball to the floor, you would not be allowed to retrieve it b/c it would be a double dribble. If you didn't picked it up with both hands than it is legal play.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 10:04am
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Cool, thanks for the quick reply!
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 10:06am
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Going OOBs and returning will have no effect on the legality in this play. All that matters is whether any of the actions constitute an illegal dribble.

Just pretend A1 was standing in the middle of the free throw lane and decided to jump and "save" ball from reaching the 3-point line and rule accordingly.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 10:14am
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Going OOBs and returning will have no effect on the legality in this play. All that matters is whether any of the actions constitute an illegal dribble.

Just pretend A1 was standing in the middle of the free throw lane and decided to jump and "save" ball from reaching the 3-point line and rule accordingly.
To me it wasn't so much that he was going out of bounds, it was more of the fact that by saving the ball, i would interpret that as a pass rather than a start of a dribble and that's why i thought it was a travel
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hzsa83 View Post
I'd imagine no since in the act of saving the ball he is actually throwing a pass, and as everyone knows if you are the first person to touch the ball after throwing a pass you have committed a travel.
I think you'll find that what "everyone knows" is quite often just not true, especially when discussing the rules of popular sports.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hzsa83 View Post
To me it wasn't so much that he was going out of bounds, it was more of the fact that by saving the ball, i would interpret that as a pass rather than a start of a dribble and that's why i thought it was a travel
I understand, but this question gets asked every year, so the quickest way to a proper ruling is to first eliminate any OOB considerations so that only the applicable rules are put in play.
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Last edited by Raymond; Wed Aug 27, 2014 at 02:00pm.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:00pm
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Originally Posted by hzsa83 View Post
i would interpret that as a pass rather than a start of a dribble
Until the ball is touched by someone (in this and similar situations), it can be either a pass or a dribble. So, your initial premise that "it's a travel to recover (an attempted) pass" is incorrect.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hzsa83 View Post
To me it wasn't so much that he was going out of bounds, it was more of the fact that by saving the ball, i would interpret that as a pass rather than a start of a dribble and that's why i thought it was a travel
Would you "interpret it" as a pass if said player tipped a rebound similarly (and no OOB line was in question) and then recovered the tipped bouncing ball?

Same here. Not illegal.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:25pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Until the ball is touched by someone (in this and similar situations), it can be either a pass or a dribble. So, your initial premise that "it's a travel to recover (an attempted) pass" is incorrect.
My premise that "it's a travel to recover an attempted pass" was not incorrect - because that is in fact a travel!

Where I got it wrong was thinking that an act of saving the ball from going out of bounds is exclusively deemed a pass, when in fact the case book says that it can also be deemed to be a start of a dribble.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:36pm
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Originally Posted by hzsa83 View Post
My premise that "it's a travel to recover an attempted pass" was not incorrect - because that is in fact a travel!

Where I got it wrong was thinking that an act of saving the ball from going out of bounds is exclusively deemed a pass, when in fact the case book says that it can also be deemed to be a start of a dribble.
We're telling you that it is an incorrect premise. If you have a rule book, you'll search forever to find that rule because it's not there. If you don't have one, you'll search slightly longer since we'll have to add the time it takes you to get one.

Let me ask.

A1 catches a pass from a teammate (let's call him A2). He then throws the ball towards another teammate (A3) in an attempt to pass the ball. A3 doesn't see it coming, so A1 runs over and retrieves the ball after it bounces before it goes out of bounds.

You think this is a travel?
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:40pm
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Originally Posted by hzsa83 View Post
My premise that "it's a travel to recover an attempted pass" was not incorrect - because that is in fact a travel!
Play: A1 is holding the ball, and has not dribbled. A1 attempts to pass the ball to A2 (and A1 does not lift the pivot foot in the process). A2 is not expecting the pass and cuts away from the pass. A2 runs and recovers the ball after it has bounced.

Ruling: I think you are claiming this would be a violation. It is legal. A1 has now dribbled the ball, and a subsequent dribble would be illegal.

If A1 had already dribbled, the play would be illegal. If A1 lifted the pivot foot prior to releasing the ball, it would be travelling. If A1 moved the pivot foot and caught the ball prior to the ball touching the floor, it would be a violation.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:40pm
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Would you "interpret it" as a pass if said player tipped a rebound similarly (and no OOB line was in question) and then recovered the tipped bouncing ball?

Same here. Not illegal.
When you present it that way, it adds about 10 shades of gray to something i thought was black and white. Just makes me respect the officiating profession that much more. The tipping the ball while rebounding scenario is a little more clearcut in my mind since a guy tipping the ball while jostling for the rebound doesn't appear to have possession and any batting of the ball can hardly be deemed a pass, so hence - no travel. i look at that kind of in the same way where fumbling of the ball is not deemed a dribble and hence why a player is not called for travel in that case.
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Old Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:49pm
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Originally Posted by hzsa83 View Post
When you present it that way, it adds about 10 shades of gray to something i thought was black and white. Just makes me respect the officiating profession that much more. The tipping the ball while rebounding scenario is a little more clearcut in my mind since a guy tipping the ball while jostling for the rebound doesn't appear to have possession and any batting of the ball can hardly be deemed a pass, so hence - no travel. i look at that kind of in the same way where fumbling of the ball is not deemed a dribble and hence why a player is not called for travel in that case.
Keep reading. I think the tip is a poor illustration here. Read bob's latest post.
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