Coach situation

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I've been taught that if you call the first tech on a coach/player, then you should let your partner call the second (if needed).

There are two reasons for this...

1) Your feelings regarding the first tech may skew your judgment and lead to an unnecessary second.

2) In the eyes of the coach it doesn't look like it's one particular official that's "out to get him".

BTW, I'm strictly a high school official, so I'm sure things are done different at the college level. Seeing how Coach Jim Boeheim acted last year certainly tells me that.

I agree with this philosophy in "theory" but we have to be careful to make sure young refs understand it is not "policy". Was observing two newer refs doing a varsity level summer game when the coach went crazy. After R1 (who made the call in question) correctly T'd him he stormed onto the floor, got in her personal space, and she tossed him as R2, who had been on other end of court was making his way there. After game we sat to discuss a she was miffed that R2 didn't get the 2nd Tech and started to lay into him. She thought partner was always supposed to get 2nd T and felt she was doing his dirty work. Luckily, R2 was understanding and both learned something from it.

For me, this philosophy is correct if there is a delay between the two techs -- maybe I Tee the coach and then later when he continually misbehaves or refuses to stay seated I discuss with partner and he zaps him the next time it happens. But if its bang bang then I fire off both barrels without hesitation.

And, as for reason #1, my judgement is never skewed by this. Its not personal and I don't look for T's. For reason #2, don't care. I can't control what a coach wants to think when I enforce rules. I've been around long enough not to have to worry about reputations, coaches talking about me to each other, or being scratched. For those that do have to worry, keep doing it by the book and you won't have to worry long. Good word about you will spread.

[Rich1]

Since I wasn't there and don't have video, I say that you should trust your judgement and your partner should too. If you thought it was T worthy then it was T worthy. It sounds like he raised enough of a ruckus to draw your attention, ignored your warnings, and earned a T. It doesn't matter that he wasn't talking to you.

I also applaude the fact that you walked away, discussed the T with your partners, and later had a polite conversation with the coach. This not only shows true professionalism, it is also how youget to that place in our profession where you can administer your games without fear of having your action & motives being questioned. This also tells me that your original actions and judgement were most likely spot on. Bravo!

[Pantherdreams]

Sounds like you did the right things all around. Good chance afterwards to debrief with partner about the situation and how it was handled or what if scenarios if things had gone differently.

In a similar path: How much latitude do you give in terms of as you call the first T before you are considering it the second T issue?

Ie. If a coach is spouting off or player chirps, I know guys that the second they blow the first T they expect the behviour to stop as soon as the T is called. Others will call it and walk away and let the coach simmer or finish their rant.

Obviously most of this is contextual who is saying what when etc. But as a rule of thumb at what point does the statement/behaviour that earns the first T stop being that case and become the 2nd?

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Sounds like you did the right things all around. Good chance afterwards to debrief with partner about the situation and how it was handled or what if scenarios if things had gone differently.

In a similar path: How much latitude do you give in terms of as you call the first T before you are considering it the second T issue?

Ie. If a coach is spouting off or player chirps, I know guys that the second they blow the first T they expect the behviour to stop as soon as the T is called. Others will call it and walk away and let the coach simmer or finish their rant.

Obviously most of this is contextual who is saying what when etc. But as a rule of thumb at what point does the statement/behaviour that earns the first T stop being that case and become the 2nd?

I will usually give one last verbal warning unless the continued comment or behavior is aggregious. Something like "let it go and move on so we can avoid further actions and get back to the game" - in my best sweet & nonthreatening voice of course. This goes over better if you have already spent time building rapport and talking with the coach during the game.

I try to do this before hand as well. Last weekend had a team loudly bemoaning my partners call. As he reported the foul I politely advised both teams to not "let the attitudes get out of hand." One girl looked at me and mumbled "when the calls get fair". I replied with another warning "next time that will earn a T" and when she rolled her eyes, shrugged her shoulders, and mumbled "so", she got one. I could have fired off right away but thought better game management to be patient but I didn't get the opportunity to do so.

By the way, whether I give a loud warning, put a warning in the book (I know, its a Texas thing), or give a soft warning to a coach or player, I always make sure my partner knows to whom and why the warning was issued so he can be on the same page.

[SE Minnestoa Re]

Originally Posted by Rich1

I will usually give one last verbal warning unless the continued comment or behavior is aggregious. Something like "let it go and move on so we can avoid further actions and get back to the game" - in my best sweet & nonthreatening voice of course. This goes over better if you have already spent time building rapport and talking with the coach during the game.

I try to do this before hand as well. Last weekend had a team loudly bemoaning my partners call. As he reported the foul I politely advised both teams to not "let the attitudes get out of hand." One girl looked at me and mumbled "when the calls get fair". I replied with another warning "next time that will earn a T" and when she rolled her eyes, shrugged her shoulders, and mumbled "so", she got one. I could have fired off right away but thought better game management to be patient but I didn't get the opportunity to do so.

By the way, whether I give a loud warning, put a warning in the book (I know, its a Texas thing), or give a soft warning to a coach or player, I always make sure my partner knows to whom and why the warning was issued so he can be on the same page.

I'm not a big fan of the next time warning. It's kind of like the "one more word" warning. I think it puts me in a bad spot if something is said.

I prefer "knock it off, that's enough etc..." It does not put me into the I don't make threats, I make promises mode.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re

I'm not a big fan of the next time warning. It's kind of like the "one more word" warning. I think it puts me in a bad spot if something is said.

I prefer "knock it off, that's enough etc..." It does not put me into the I don't make threats, I make promises mode.

Agreed.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by Rich1

I try to do this before hand as well. Last weekend had a team loudly bemoaning my partners call. As he reported the foul I politely advised both teams to not "let the attitudes get out of hand." One girl looked at me and mumbled "when the calls get fair". I replied with another warning "next time that will earn a T" and when she rolled her eyes, shrugged her shoulders, and mumbled "so", she got one. I could have fired off right away but thought better game management to be patient but I didn't get the opportunity to do so.

Disagree all the way here. How many warnings does it take? All you did was let her get in yet another jab until she was penalized for her behavior. I would have stuck her on the "when calls get fair" comment. All the second warning did is encourage the next reaction. She was going to get the T no matter what, why let the first comment go unpunished?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Rich1

I agree with this philosophy in "theory" but we have to be careful to make sure young refs understand it is not "policy". Was observing two newer refs doing a varsity level summer game when the coach went crazy. After R1 (who made the call in question) correctly T'd him he stormed onto the floor, got in her personal space, and she tossed him as R2, who had been on other end of court was making his way there. After game we sat to discuss a she was miffed that R2 didn't get the 2nd Tech and started to lay into him. She thought partner was always supposed to get 2nd T and felt she was doing his dirty work. Luckily, R2 was understanding and both learned something from it.

For me, this philosophy is correct if there is a delay between the two techs -- maybe I Tee the coach and then later when he continually misbehaves or refuses to stay seated I discuss with partner and he zaps him the next time it happens. But if its bang bang then I fire off both barrels without hesitation.

And, as for reason #1, my judgement is never skewed by this. Its not personal and I don't look for T's. For reason #2, don't care. I can't control what a coach wants to think when I enforce rules. I've been around long enough not to have to worry about reputations, coaches talking about me to each other, or being scratched. For those that do have to worry, keep doing it by the book and you won't have to worry long. Good word about you will spread.

That's a good point about making it clear that it's not in the official's manual or something.

As for the reasons I gave, they don't apply to everybody.

Thanks everyone for the great responses. I've determined that I didn't give the coach adequate time to settle down. He wasn't profane. He wasn't out the box, etc. His behavior didn't really fit the 4 P's: personal, prolonged, profane, public. It was public but not more than any other coach would do. So bad tech on my part. I need to raise my threshold a little.

[Rich]

In summer ball?

Whack.

Originally Posted by Rich

Summer ball?

Whack.

Originally Posted by Rich

In summer ball?

Whack.

Hey, don't steal my move :P

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Thanks everyone for the great responses. I've determined that I didn't give the coach adequate time to settle down. He wasn't profane. He wasn't out the box, etc. His behavior didn't really fit the 4 P's: personal, prolonged, profane, public. It was public but not more than any other coach would do. So bad tech on my part. I need to raise my threshold a little.

That's why summer is great, a chance to make mistakes and analyze them without much harm being done.