NCAA Tournament and Precision Timing

Originally Posted by Rich

So what's the argument against just the whistle?

The lightbulb in my head just went on! Very sneaky, I like it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Which is why I use the open-hand stop-clock signal on all held balls. Whats the rush? If the players are tied up everyone knows what is coming. Plus if I have a hand and my partner has a fist, no one will notice.

So, you indicate a violation when there is no violation? Why not do what the book says? Even if you do as you indicate, you still have to discuss the situation since you can't know that your partner's foul was before or after your held ball that you're not properly signaling.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

So, you indicate a violation when there is no violation?

I was not aware an open hand signalled a violation! I suggest you check out the Official NFHS Basketball Signals page in the rulebook (page 72) and tell me what an open hand signals.

And yes I am aware of Officials Manual 3.4.3B. Not giving the thumbs right away allows the crew to be on the same page and make sure no one has a foul.

[bob jenkins]

Well, #3 is specifically for a held ball, and #4 is specifically for a foul. (I pulled those off of some website from RefMag, so the specific numbers might vary)

You can use #2 for any other reason -- but given the play in question, what else would it be other than a violation?

And, I would guess that over 90% of varsity coaches in this area will notice the open hand v. fist as much as they would notice the thumbs v. fist, so you're going to have the same (or similar) discussion.

either don't give any signal, or signal what you have. I prefer the latter, but I understand how / why some prefer the former.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I was not aware an open hand signalled a violation! I suggest you check out the Official NFHS Basketball Signals page in the rulebook (page 72) and tell me what an open hand signals.

And yes I am aware of Officials Manual 3.4.3B. Not giving the thumbs right away allows the crew to be on the same page and make sure no one has a foul.

You may not be signaling a violation, specifically, but by not using the signal that IS defined for a held ball, you are signaling that you don't have a held ball. So what is it that you could be signaling? The only logical choices are a violation or a timeout.

Also, why not use an open hand for fouls too if you want a generic stopclock signal without committing to a call.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You may not be signaling a violation, specifically, but by not using the signal that IS defined for a held ball, you are signaling that you don't have a held ball.

Not at all. I am signalling to stop the clock, which is the most important thing. This, combined with the whistle tells the players to stop struggling. There is no reason why the held-ball signal cannot come later as a type of preliminary signal.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Not at all. I am signalling to stop the clock, which is the most important thing. This, combined with the whistle tells the players to stop struggling. There is no reason why the held-ball signal cannot come later as a type of preliminary signal.

The players don't see your hand. Most coaches don't either. I would submit that the only people that would either see or care about your invented hand signals are people who would have a problem with it (supervisors, et al). So you're doing something that doesn't have any positive effect - which could possibly be seen negatively by a select few. I'd drop it. Whistle does ALL of the positive things you're trying to accomplish... leave it at that.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

The players don't see your hand. Most coaches don't either. I would submit that the only people that would either see or care about your invented hand signals are people who would have a problem with it (supervisors, et al). So you're doing something that doesn't have any positive effect - which could possibly be seen negatively by a select few. I'd drop it. Whistle does ALL of the positive things you're trying to accomplish... leave it at that.

The more I think about it, the more I like the way you and Rich do it. You are right, the whistle does all the positive stuff you want (stop the clock, tells the players to stop) without the negative (conflicting signals, etc.).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Not at all. I am signalling to stop the clock, which is the most important thing. This, combined with the whistle tells the players to stop struggling. There is no reason why the held-ball signal cannot come later as a type of preliminary signal.

Then, why don't you also go with the open hand on a foul?

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Not at all. I am signalling to stop the clock, which is the most important thing. This, combined with the whistle tells the players to stop struggling. There is no reason why the held-ball signal cannot come later as a type of preliminary signal.

The reason is expressed on the "Official NFHS Basketball Signals" chart, where #3 is the "Stop clock for jump/held ball" signal. It is the one and only signal needed, and authorized for that call.
I have, for several years, done the "whistle, quickly check partner(s), then the jump/held ball signal." It takes a very short moment, and keeps me in line with NFHS and our Supervisor. He and his staff of evaluators want only that signal on that call.
But, to each his own.

[JRutledge]

Giving an "open hand" on a held ball might look like you had a violation, then defaulted to a "held ball." At least when you signal "held ball" you are telling everyone that is what you have and there is no confusion.

Peace

[Rich1]

The open hand is for violations, the closed hand for fouls. A jump ball is neither which is why we simply signal it as a jump ball.

Our practice around here is to blow the whistle and take several steps toward the action (moving in to prevent continued jostling about) before giving the jump ball signal. This gives us a few seconds to see if our partners have something different.

[LRZ]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Our practice around here is to blow the whistle and take several steps toward the action (moving in to prevent continued jostling about) before giving the jump ball signal. This gives us a few seconds to see if our partners have something different.

I like that idea. Although I move in when there actually is too much wrestling, it's usually after giving the jump ball signal. I never thought about delaying the signal momentarily as a technique to allow some quick communication. Thanks, I'll have to remember and apply this idea next season.

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by Rich1

The open hand is for violations, the closed hand for fouls. A jump ball is neither which is why we simply signal it as a jump ball.

I get what you're saying and I agree with it, but the open hand is for stopping the clock, not just violations.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rooster

I get what you're saying and I agree with it, but the open hand is for stopping the clock, not just violations.

It's not for stopping the clock for a held ball, though.