Where problems start... (video)

[stick]

Originally Posted by Nikki

A foul in the first play on black...calling this and a quick talking to about the extra activity probably prevents the next situation.
But...In light of no call there the biggest problem is that the lead doesn't rotate at the other end. If he rotates this play is right in front of him and maybe he gets the first foul (or the second or third). Too many times in this area officials don't want to rotate "until the ball settles lower than the free throw line".

Full disclosure: I asked JMF to post this video for me, the visitors actually won the game by 17...The penalties handed out were a double foul on black 11 and the white player that goes down. Then double technicals for the shoving after the play.

Exactly correct. Why the L didn't flex on this play is puzzling to me.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by stick

Exactly correct. Why the L didn't flex on this play is puzzling to me.

Who cares where the officials are on the court when this happens? It's a wrestling match. 1 of 3 *should* have it.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by deecee

Who cares where the officials are on the court when this happens? It's a wrestling match. 1 of 3 *should* have it.

You're right somebody should have, but where all 3 of the officials are on the court is probably the reason nobody blew a whistle or even saw the at least 3 fouls leading to the take down until the white player is on the ground.

[deecee]

They are both looking right at the action.

[APG]

Originally Posted by deecee

Who cares where the officials are on the court when this happens? It's a wrestling match. 1 of 3 *should* have it.

Positioning is still important IMO...yes this is something that any 3 of the officials can/should get, but psychologically speaking, it's easier to come and get this if it happens near you and you know it's in your area rather than reaching.

[ballgame99]

So if you are the L in clip 2 and you've flexed over, and you see V1 slap/push the defender's arm away like he did, what do you have? Intentional foul? Not enough to be flagrant at that point. Hopefully the body slam was considered flagrant.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

So if you are the L in clip 2 and you've flexed over, and you see V1 slap/push the defender's arm away like he did, what do you have? Intentional foul? Not enough to be flagrant at that point. Hopefully the body slam was considered flagrant.

The slap/push is a TC foul or at the very least you tell them "knock it off" while the ball is live.

That's where Play #1 becomes important. If the first play is called a foul against Black #11 - as I feel it should have been - or at least plants a seed in the minds of the officials because of the way Black #11 and White #12 got tangled up, the L or even the C responds to them faster on the next play.

[ballgame99]

I agree on the black foul on clip 1, I'm just curious how everyone feels the behavior (pre-slam) in clip 2 should be penalized. To me, it looks like a violent shove meant to start a fight and an intentional foul would be justified. Curious what others think.

Edit to remove reference to a 'T', I meant intentional foul.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

I agree on the black foul on clip 1, I'm just curious how everyone feels the behavior (pre-slam) in clip 2 should be penalized. To me, it looks like a violent shove meant to start a fight and a T would be justified. Curious what others think.

I think that's hard to say from the angle we have. It looks like black shoves white's arm away, but we can't really see what white's arm was doing, they're definitely going back and forth. Possibly holding his jersey or maybe just a touch. I don't see calling a T for that but I can absolutely see calling a TC foul.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

The slap/push is a TC foul or at the very least you tell them "knock it off" while the ball is live.

That's where Play #1 becomes important. If the first play is called a foul against Black #11 - as I feel it should have been - or at least plants a seed in the minds of the officials because of the way Black #11 and White #12 got tangled up, the L or even the C responds to them faster on the next play.

Exactly...you have more than one opportunity just in those two plays to let them both know you're watching and to knock it off, even if you don't call a foul. I too would've had a foul on the first play and probably would have told them to knock it off then. And that's why I feel the L's rotation (or lack of rotation) is so important. If he rotates it puts him right there, he would have a better look, and maybe not question coming so far to call something, and both players would be aware of his presence. Maybe there's a jersey being held, or maybe black gets a TC foul for pushing his hand away or maybe you call a double foul, but any or all of that prevents things from happening the way they did.