Where problems start... (video)

[deecee]

Originally Posted by stick

Exactly correct. Why the L didn't flex on this play is puzzling to me.

Who cares where the officials are on the court when this happens? It's a wrestling match. 1 of 3 *should* have it.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by deecee

Who cares where the officials are on the court when this happens? It's a wrestling match. 1 of 3 *should* have it.

You're right somebody should have, but where all 3 of the officials are on the court is probably the reason nobody blew a whistle or even saw the at least 3 fouls leading to the take down until the white player is on the ground.

[deecee]

They are both looking right at the action.

[APG]

Originally Posted by deecee

Who cares where the officials are on the court when this happens? It's a wrestling match. 1 of 3 *should* have it.

Positioning is still important IMO...yes this is something that any 3 of the officials can/should get, but psychologically speaking, it's easier to come and get this if it happens near you and you know it's in your area rather than reaching.

[ballgame99]

So if you are the L in clip 2 and you've flexed over, and you see V1 slap/push the defender's arm away like he did, what do you have? Intentional foul? Not enough to be flagrant at that point. Hopefully the body slam was considered flagrant.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

So if you are the L in clip 2 and you've flexed over, and you see V1 slap/push the defender's arm away like he did, what do you have? Intentional foul? Not enough to be flagrant at that point. Hopefully the body slam was considered flagrant.

The slap/push is a TC foul or at the very least you tell them "knock it off" while the ball is live.

That's where Play #1 becomes important. If the first play is called a foul against Black #11 - as I feel it should have been - or at least plants a seed in the minds of the officials because of the way Black #11 and White #12 got tangled up, the L or even the C responds to them faster on the next play.

[ballgame99]

I agree on the black foul on clip 1, I'm just curious how everyone feels the behavior (pre-slam) in clip 2 should be penalized. To me, it looks like a violent shove meant to start a fight and an intentional foul would be justified. Curious what others think.

Edit to remove reference to a 'T', I meant intentional foul.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

I agree on the black foul on clip 1, I'm just curious how everyone feels the behavior (pre-slam) in clip 2 should be penalized. To me, it looks like a violent shove meant to start a fight and a T would be justified. Curious what others think.

I think that's hard to say from the angle we have. It looks like black shoves white's arm away, but we can't really see what white's arm was doing, they're definitely going back and forth. Possibly holding his jersey or maybe just a touch. I don't see calling a T for that but I can absolutely see calling a TC foul.

[Nevadaref]

1. I've already said that I wouldn't call a foul for the two guys doing a little paddycake in clip #1. I would simply tell them to knock it off and then watch them for the next two or three trips up and down the floor. I might even verbally announce to my partners that these two have been warned and to keep an eye on them.
I think that calling a foul for this action during a loose ball in a boys game is being too picky. I also agree with the poster who noted that the T was in a spot from which he couldn't really observe the action. I call this straight-lined or having a closed look. My terminology is different from what he used, but we are saying the same thing.

2. Those who want a foul for the player knocking the defender's hand away are crazy. That doesn't make any sense. If you are going to allow a defender to put his hand on an opponent continuously, without penalty, then you better not penalize the player when he pushes it away. Again this situation falls into the how picky do you want to be category. If you whistle anything here, you better penalize the first illegal contact not just the response. I'm still not convinced that a whistle is needed at this point in this particular situation, but given the earlier dust-up and especially if these two were warned, I'm okay with a double personal here.
I tend to manage boys games more with my voice and proximity to the players. The game is generally better that way than when there are lots of fouls called and FTs attempted.

3. The first hard contact in the second clip or contact with two hands gets a whistle and I'd close right in. Easier to do if the Lead has rotated.

4. To the posters talking about a T in clip #2, I hope that you are referring to after one of the players hits the floor and the ball is dead on a previous foul because the rules don't allow us to toss out Ts for live ball contact.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nikki

Possibly holding his jersey or maybe just a touch. I don't see calling a T for that but I can absolutely see calling a TC foul.

This is what drives me nuts when coming from officials. There is no way that you can choose between a technical foul and a team control foul. The choice would properly be between an intentional personal foul and a team control foul.
Seriously, it's our job to know the rules!

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

The slap/push is a TC foul or at the very least you tell them "knock it off" while the ball is live.

That's where Play #1 becomes important. If the first play is called a foul against Black #11 - as I feel it should have been - or at least plants a seed in the minds of the officials because of the way Black #11 and White #12 got tangled up, the L or even the C responds to them faster on the next play.

Exactly...you have more than one opportunity just in those two plays to let them both know you're watching and to knock it off, even if you don't call a foul. I too would've had a foul on the first play and probably would have told them to knock it off then. And that's why I feel the L's rotation (or lack of rotation) is so important. If he rotates it puts him right there, he would have a better look, and maybe not question coming so far to call something, and both players would be aware of his presence. Maybe there's a jersey being held, or maybe black gets a TC foul for pushing his hand away or maybe you call a double foul, but any or all of that prevents things from happening the way they did.