Where problems start... (video)

[ballgame99]

I agree on the black foul on clip 1, I'm just curious how everyone feels the behavior (pre-slam) in clip 2 should be penalized. To me, it looks like a violent shove meant to start a fight and an intentional foul would be justified. Curious what others think.

Edit to remove reference to a 'T', I meant intentional foul.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

The slap/push is a TC foul or at the very least you tell them "knock it off" while the ball is live.

That's where Play #1 becomes important. If the first play is called a foul against Black #11 - as I feel it should have been - or at least plants a seed in the minds of the officials because of the way Black #11 and White #12 got tangled up, the L or even the C responds to them faster on the next play.

Exactly...you have more than one opportunity just in those two plays to let them both know you're watching and to knock it off, even if you don't call a foul. I too would've had a foul on the first play and probably would have told them to knock it off then. And that's why I feel the L's rotation (or lack of rotation) is so important. If he rotates it puts him right there, he would have a better look, and maybe not question coming so far to call something, and both players would be aware of his presence. Maybe there's a jersey being held, or maybe black gets a TC foul for pushing his hand away or maybe you call a double foul, but any or all of that prevents things from happening the way they did.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

I agree on the black foul on clip 1, I'm just curious how everyone feels the behavior (pre-slam) in clip 2 should be penalized. To me, it looks like a violent shove meant to start a fight and a T would be justified. Curious what others think.

I think that's hard to say from the angle we have. It looks like black shoves white's arm away, but we can't really see what white's arm was doing, they're definitely going back and forth. Possibly holding his jersey or maybe just a touch. I don't see calling a T for that but I can absolutely see calling a TC foul.

[Nevadaref]

1. I've already said that I wouldn't call a foul for the two guys doing a little paddycake in clip #1. I would simply tell them to knock it off and then watch them for the next two or three trips up and down the floor. I might even verbally announce to my partners that these two have been warned and to keep an eye on them.
I think that calling a foul for this action during a loose ball in a boys game is being too picky. I also agree with the poster who noted that the T was in a spot from which he couldn't really observe the action. I call this straight-lined or having a closed look. My terminology is different from what he used, but we are saying the same thing.

2. Those who want a foul for the player knocking the defender's hand away are crazy. That doesn't make any sense. If you are going to allow a defender to put his hand on an opponent continuously, without penalty, then you better not penalize the player when he pushes it away. Again this situation falls into the how picky do you want to be category. If you whistle anything here, you better penalize the first illegal contact not just the response. I'm still not convinced that a whistle is needed at this point in this particular situation, but given the earlier dust-up and especially if these two were warned, I'm okay with a double personal here.
I tend to manage boys games more with my voice and proximity to the players. The game is generally better that way than when there are lots of fouls called and FTs attempted.

3. The first hard contact in the second clip or contact with two hands gets a whistle and I'd close right in. Easier to do if the Lead has rotated.

4. To the posters talking about a T in clip #2, I hope that you are referring to after one of the players hits the floor and the ball is dead on a previous foul because the rules don't allow us to toss out Ts for live ball contact.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nikki

Possibly holding his jersey or maybe just a touch. I don't see calling a T for that but I can absolutely see calling a TC foul.

This is what drives me nuts when coming from officials. There is no way that you can choose between a technical foul and a team control foul. The choice would properly be between an intentional personal foul and a team control foul.
Seriously, it's our job to know the rules!

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I think that calling a foul for this action during a loose ball in a boys game is being too picky. I also agree with the poster who noted that the T was in a spot from which he couldn't really observe the action. I call this straight-lined or having a closed look.

I agree with the closed look - kind of - but I can't agree with "being too picky" on the contact. If they were in equally advantageous positions to start with fine, but B11 came from behind and through W12 and displaced him. That's a foul, boys' or girls' game.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Those who want a foul for the player knocking the defender's hand away are crazy. That doesn't make any sense. If you are going to allow a defender to put his hand on an opponent continuously, without penalty, then you better not penalize the player when he pushes it away. Again this situation falls into the how picky do you want to be category. If you whistle anything here, you better penalize the first illegal contact not just the response..

It's not crazy based on what we can see. As has been mentioned we don't know whether W12 held B11's jersey but one thing we can see is W12 didn't have continuous contact with B11 at the moment B11 swipes his arm away. W12 had just contacted B11 with his hand and the contact doesn't appear to be inhibiting B11's freedom of movement. The first illegal contact - that we can see - would be B11 swiping W12's arm away, followed by B11's clamp on W12's arm, then the take down.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is what drives me nuts when coming from officials. There is no way that you can choose between a technical foul and a team control foul. The choice would properly be between an intentional personal foul and a team control foul.
Seriously, it's our job to know the rules!

I was responding to someone else asking about calling a T here. I previously said I personally would do some talking to them. Obviously we don't have a T during a live ball for contact.

Your statements about it being a boys game are ridiculous - it's either a foul or it's not. The gender of the players in this situation are completely irrelevant.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

I agree on the black foul on clip 1, I'm just curious how everyone feels the behavior (pre-slam) in clip 2 should be penalized. To me, it looks like a violent shove meant to start a fight and a T would be justified. Curious what others think.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is what drives me nuts when coming from officials. There is no way that you can choose between a technical foul and a team control foul. The choice would properly be between an intentional personal foul and a team control foul.
Seriously, it's our job to know the rules!

This is who you should have quoted and responded to.

[ballgame99]

Originally Posted by Nikki

This is who you should have quoted and responded to.

I mispoke when I said T, in an earlier comment I said intentional. My fault, but thank you for your concern.

And I'm not suggesting that a simple arm swipe be called an intentional foul, the player in black swipes/pushes hard enough to displace the white defender.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

I mispoke when I said T, in an earlier comment I said intentional. My fault, but thank you for your concern.

And I'm not suggesting that a simple arm swipe be called an intentional foul, I'm referring to the pre-body slam shove that causes the white defender to be displaced.

I know we both were speaking intentional vs TC vs double foul etc. It was no big deal, I should have responded back talking about Intentional or TC but if someone only wants to read certain responses so be it...

Also I'm not seeing a violent shove...it looks like prior to the slam that they are tangled up, and black gets untangled by taking white down.

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by Nikki

Your statements about it being a boys game are ridiculous - it's either a foul or it's not. The gender of the players in this situation are completely irrelevant.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by Rooster

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

How exactly in this situation (the first play) does it matter if it's boys or girls?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nikki

I was responding to someone else asking about calling a T here. I previously said I personally would do some talking to them. Obviously we don't have a T during a live ball for contact.

Your statements about it being a boys game are ridiculous - it's either a foul or it's not. The gender of the players in this situation are completely irrelevant.

You couldn't be more wrong in the last paragraph.

Boys and girls games are completely different.

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by Nikki

I was responding to someone else asking about calling a T here. I previously said I personally would do some talking to them. Obviously we don't have a T during a live ball for contact.

Your statements about it being a boys game are ridiculous - it's either a foul or it's not. The gender of the players in this situation are completely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Rich

You couldn't be more wrong in the last paragraph.

Boys and girls games are completely different.

Notice I said in THIS SITUATION (the first play). Boys and girls games ARE completely different and I never said that they weren't. I was referring to one play and whether or not I would call a foul on that particular play would not be based on the gender of the players.

Honestly we are obviously watching tape of a Varsity Boys game, why would gender even be a factor that is brought into this discussion? This tape is more a learning tool about preventive officiating, working 3 man, rotations, game management etc.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Nikki

Notice I said in THIS SITUATION (the first play). Boys and girls games ARE completely different and I never said that they weren't. I was referring to one play and whether or not I would call a foul on that particular play would not be based on the gender of the players.

Honestly we are obviously watching tape of a Varsity Boys game, why would gender even be a factor that is brought into this discussion? This tape is more a learning tool about preventive officiating, working 3 man, rotations, game management etc.

I agree and in fact this type of rough play and the retaliation is even more likely in a girls game. Although girls may wait a quarter or two to get their revenge...lol