Followup question to another post

[Hawks Coach]

on jking for starting us down this path in the first place

Nevada, gotta go with the rest on this one. Can't see how you would make that call against A, regardless of the book. I think the towel has some elastic sewn into it.

[Camron Rust]

IMHO, the rules regarding touching OOB objects were written with the assumption the objects would be in their normal state...completely OOB....chairs, walls, tables, etc. As such, I'm declaring that the part any object which is on the floor inbounds is part of the floor under it...as if the object weren't there. There is no way I would call a violation when a player steps on towel that partly inbounds and partly OOB unless the location of the step would have otherwise been OOB.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
I'd call a flagrant T on the towel and through the thing outta the gym.

I would drench him in a large mud pile and then use a cheap, cut-rate detergent to wash him. He'd beg for Tide, but I would refuse.

Mike

Assuming you haven't beckoned the towel onto the floor, it is still considered bench personnel. Therefore, the head coach receives and indirect T, loses his coaching box priviledges, and could be ejected.

One more sticky issue, can you legally throw it out of the gym without ensuring it has adult supervision?

[Edited by Back In The Saddle on Sep 3rd, 2003 at 11:39 AM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rainmaker

You're jking, right?!?

Juulie, I'm ashamed to say that it took me two weeks to notice this joke, but it's a darn good one!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Juulie, I'm ashamed to say that it took me two weeks to notice this joke, but it's a darn good one!

Don't need to worry about telling you a joke on Saturday night, eh?

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Specific situation,as above,Nevada:
Team A is down 1 with 10 seconds to go and sets up for the last shot after a TO. A1 dribbles in front of B's bench on the way up court. A1 now steps on the in-bounds part of a towel that was left lying half-on and half off of the court in front of B's bench by a B player. You're telling me that you would call a violation on A1 now for being OOB? Or if a B cheerleader left her pompom on the floor,and A1 then stepped on the in-bound part of it, you would again call A1 for being OOB, and give B the ball?

Nothing personal,Nevada,but those calls lack common sense, IMHO.

Unfortunately, common sense does not always win out. In my opinion this is one of those goofy situations, which if you are silly enough to get yourself into, you have to follow the rules book to the letter to get out of.
To answer your question, yes, OOB and team B gets the ball.
Now back up fifteen seconds and ask why this happened. It was the officials' fault for not taking a quick look around the floor before putting the ball back into play following the TO. Just simple preventative officiating that we should all do, and can help us avoid many trouble situations.

For example, if I may give you a return senario: Team A is down 1 with 10 seconds to go and sets up for the last shot after a TO. The official mistakenly administers the throw-in to a member of Team B, who quickly passes the ball into the court to a teammate. What do you rule? The common sense way: kill the play and readminister the throw-in to Team A, or the by-the-book sorry it's too late to fix it so continue playing.
See my point? If we are not diligent and make an error which puts us in such a situation, we must then follow what is written in the rules, afterall that is why they are there. Some say the rules aren't fair; so change them. But is it any more fair to not follow them?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Unfortunately, common sense does not always win out. In my opinion this is one of those goofy situations, which if you are silly enough to get yourself into, you have to follow the rules book to the letter to get out of.
To answer your question, yes, OOB and team B gets the ball.
Now back up fifteen seconds and ask why this happened. It was the officials' fault for not taking a quick look around the floor before putting the ball back into play following the TO. Just simple preventative officiating that we should all do, and can help us avoid many trouble situations.

No one said anything about how the towel got there. Perhaps it was dropped there after the ball was live. Has nothing to do with being the official's fault for not clearing it away.

Originally posted by Nevadaref
For example, if I may give you a return senario: Team A is down 1 with 10 seconds to go and sets up for the last shot after a TO. The official mistakenly administers the throw-in to a member of Team B, who quickly passes the ball into the court to a teammate. What do you rule? The common sense way: kill the play and readminister the throw-in to Team A, or the by-the-book sorry it's too late to fix it so continue playing.
See my point? If we are not diligent and make an error which puts us in such a situation, we must then follow what is written in the rules, afterall that is why they are there. Some say the rules aren't fair; so change them. But is it any more fair to not follow them?

Agreed, but the rule on objects out-of-bounds is making the assumption that the object is actually out-of-bounds. If you take your point to the extreme, the player is OOB anytime there foot touches the floor if the finish on the floor spans the OOB line. An object on the floor, is located in the same place as the floor below it. An object that is entirely OOB is OOB. An object that is entirely inbounds is inbounds. An object that is bridgeing the line has each part the same as the floor below it.

The intent of the OOB rule is to keep the players within a defined space that is the same for both teams. The rule about touching an OOB oject is to prevent a player with the ball who is falling from touching a chair, wall, or some such object to keep their balance. To call a violation on a player who steps/touches a foreign object when the action would have normally been within the boundary is not supported by the spirit and intent of the OOB rules...and arguably not even by the letter of the rule.

If you want to really get technical about it all, a player can never touch the object or OOB. At the atomic level, there is ALWAYS space between the atoms of the players body or clothing and any other object (unless they are capable of spontaneous cold fusion). Therefor, by the laws of physics, there can never be an OOB violation, nor a legal throw-in, jump ball, foul, etc.

[Hawks Coach]

Camron
Thanks for a much more lucid description of the problem than any of us previously provided. This is quite different than the rule Nevada cited about giving the ball to the wrong team - ther is a way to deal with it, and it doesn't seem fair but it is a clear rule.

This is a different case. The object OOB rule exists so that you do not have to touch just the floor OOB, but the bleachers, a chair, etc. It does not exist to cover the towel on the floor situation. However, there is still the case of the unshod player's shoe. . .

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Therefor, by the laws of physics, there can never be an OOB violation, nor a legal throw-in, jump ball, foul, etc.

Isn't it interesting that the laws of physics do not preclude most technical fouls?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Camron Rust


[/B]

If you want to really get technical about it all, a player can never touch the object or OOB. At the atomic level, there is ALWAYS space between the atoms of the players body or clothing and any other object (unless they are capable of spontaneous cold fusion). Therefor, by the laws of physics, there can never be an OOB violation, nor a legal throw-in, jump ball, foul, etc.
[/B][/QUOTE]I agree!

[AK ref SE]

I look at the rule as objects that are normally OOB at the start of the game ie chairs, bleachers, tables etc. If I see a towel on the floor I consider that a hazard if it is in the path of a player. I blow my whistle stop the play. Give the ball back to the team that had possession of the ball prior to the whistle. As far as the shoe. If it half in and half out when it is off the player. It should have been half in and out on the player. Should have been blown dead then! But guess I could be wrong there also!

AK ref SE

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
No one said anything about how the towel got there. Perhaps it was dropped there after the ball was live. Has nothing to do with being the official's fault for not clearing it away.

Sorry, Cam, but we already covered this: see my post 9-2 at 8:06PM, also JR and I have been very clear that the towel or pom-pom was inadvertently left on the boundary line during a TO.

Originally posted by Camron Rust
An object that is bridgeing the line has each part the same as the floor below it.

This statement is totally untrue. Please re-read the rule carefully.

7-1 ...A player is out of bounds when he/she touches the floor, or any object other than a player, on or outside a boundary.

Notice that it quite clearly says ON OR OUTSIDE. This means that just like a player who has one foot inbounds and one foot OOB, an object which is touching both inbounds and OOB is to be considered OOB.

Originally posted by Camron Rust
The rule about touching an OOB oject is to prevent a player with the ball who is falling from touching a chair, wall, or some such object to keep their balance.

Certainly true, but it seems to cover even more because of the specific language used.

Originally posted by Camron Rust
To call a violation on a player who steps/touches a foreign object when the action would have normally been within the boundary is not supported by the spirit and intent of the OOB rules.

This is by far your best argument. I just feel that I loses out to "the letter of the rule."

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
It does not exist to cover the towel on the floor situation. However, there is still the case of the unshod player's shoe. . .

How do you know? I concur that 99% of the time the rule is used to stop a player from touching an object or fan which is completely OOB in a way which would provide that player an advantage, but the wording of the rule is clear and specific enough to cover the wacky situations too. If you go with the plain language of the rule, it covers the towel, pom-pom, and the unshod shoe! Something to think about.

[CLAY]

I am calling a JV boys basketball game. Score is tied with less than 40 sec's left. A1 has the ball and is getting no pressure bringing up the ball in the back court. A1 who has stopped next to the coach for instruction, but contuines his dribble, A1 is patted on the rear by the coach who is standing out of bounds. I call out of bounds on A1. Was this the correct call.

[RecRef]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
[
If you want to really get technical about it all, a player can never touch the object or OOB. At the atomic level, there is ALWAYS space between the atoms of the players body or clothing and any other object (unless they are capable of spontaneous cold fusion). Therefor, by the laws of physics, there can never be an OOB violation, nor a legal throw-in, jump ball, foul, etc. [/B]

Sorry, but the atomic level has nothing to do with it.

It is at the molecular level where we see that not only is the player out-of-bounds for standing on the towel but the out-of-bounds is now inbounds and the inbounds is now out-of-bounds. This is through a process known as molecular migration where the molecules of contacting objects flow between each other and collide when doing so.

While this is all said tongue in cheek when it comes to basketball, molecular migration is a very serious problem in some areas. A few years back the Red Cross had to destroy a large quantity of blood because the bags being used at that time were contaminating the blood through migration.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Therefor, by the laws of physics, there can never be an OOB violation, nor a legal throw-in, jump ball, foul, etc.

Because you only need to be over the designated spot not on it, I think this interp is wrong. You can make a legal throw-in without having physical contact with the spot.