adding name to book

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mdray

(I seem to remember an old case play related to this, but haven't been able to find it)

3.2.2C(b) in last year's book (what I have handy)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

3.2.2C(b) in last year's book (what I have handy)

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first
time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned
onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2.
The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in
the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During
halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook
and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of
the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a
player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number
must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A.
In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25
attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will
be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-
1-2b)

Remember, during intermissions, all team members are bench personnel.

[BillyMac]

Many administrative infractions can involve the scorebook and rosters. If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name and uniform number must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game. In addition, if a team requires the official scorer to change a team member or player’s uniform number in the official scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Three scorebook situations: adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, and/or having a player change a uniform number, are penalized with a team technical foul when they occur, after the ten minute time limit. These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.

Remember, the technical foul isn't for the undocumented team member participating in the game, its for adding his name, and number, to the scorebook.

[jritchie]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Many administrative infractions can involve the scorebook and rosters. If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name and uniform number must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game. In addition, if a team requires the official scorer to change a team member or player’s uniform number in the official scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Three scorebook situations: adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, and/or having a player change a uniform number, are penalized with a team technical foul when they occur, after the ten minute time limit. These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.

Remember, the technical foul isn't for the undocumented team member participating in the game, its for adding his name, and number, to the scorebook.

So when A6, who is not in the book, checks in and we becon them on and the ball becomes live, they are now a legal player. Then when the table lets us know they are not in the book, but are on the floor playing, isn't it too late to penalize? (According to Case book play 10.1 maybe) We just instruct scorer to add their name to the book and play on. Is that not how it supposed to be interpreted???

[jritchie]

And also, if we would penalize this with an administrative technical foul for not having A6 in the book, if we had say player A7 check in with a wrong number, would we also T this one or because of the first administrative T already been given, it would count for all the changes that need to be made? I would think that the first T would count for any changes to be made in the book the rest of the game, or am I mis-interpreting that wrong?

[Rob1968]

This comes under 10-2, and lists 5 possible infractions. The Penalty states: "One foul only per team regardless of the number of infractions."

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jritchie

So when A6, who is not in the book, checks in and we becon them on and the ball becomes live, they are now a legal player. Then when the table lets us know they are not in the book, but are on the floor playing, isn't it too late to penalize? (According to Case book play 10.1 maybe) We just instruct scorer to add their name to the book and play on. Is that not how it supposed to be interpreted???

No, that's not how it's supposed to be interpreted.

If they are playing, but not in the book, then it's a T to add them.

If they've been added, but you weren't informed until later, then it's too late to penalize.

[jritchie]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No, that's not how it's supposed to be interpreted.

If they are playing, but not in the book, then it's a T to add them.

If they've been added, but you weren't informed until later, then it's too late to penalize.

So when they check in and the scorer just adds them without saying anything to us and they play, then the scorer says something later it's too late, but if they let them come in and don't add them to the book then let us know when they receive a foul or points it's now a T? I just don't get that interp from Case book play 10.1.2

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jritchie

So when they check in and the scorer just adds them without saying anything to us and they play, then the scorer says something later it's too late, but if they let them come in and don't add them to the book then let us know when they receive a foul or points it's now a T? I just don't get that interp from Case book play 10.2

I assume you mean 10.1.2?

"The foul must be charged when it occurs" and "Once the ball has become live it is too late" seem pretty clear to me.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jritchie

So when they check in and the scorer just adds them without saying anything to us and they play, then the scorer says something later it's too late, but if they let them come in and don't add them to the book then let us know when they receive a foul or points it's now a T? I just don't get that interp from Case book play 10.1.2

And when it happens to favor the team associated with the scorer it raises an integrity issue.
I'm charging a T in all cases in which I know that the team member participated and was not properly listed on the team roster. That's how it was when I started officiating. Just because some fool working for the NFHS got it wrong a few years ago doesn't mean that I need to blindly follow down the same path.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

I first of all would say that this scorekeeper isn't doing their job.Not when there are all sorts of options to prevent this-
A.Have the coach write in players
B.Pull #'s from previous game and ask coach to verify or make additions/subtractions.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first
time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned
onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2.
The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in
the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During
halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook
and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of
the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a
player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number
must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A.
In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25
attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will
be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-
1-2b)

Remember, during intermissions, all team members are bench personnel.

This is one of the recent and in my opinion INCORRECT rulings published by the NFHS. Over the past five years, the NFHS issued some really poor rulings which don't mesh with the text of the rules book.

If one consults rule 2-11-1, one will see that the scorer is required to keep a record of all team members who start the game and all substitutes who enter.

So where is such a record kept by the scorer? It isn't in a notebook in his pocket. Yep, this record must be kept in the official scorebook. In order to accurately do this, the team member who participated in the first half must now have his name and number entered. The penalty for that is a team technical foul.

Note that the ruling by the NFHS for penalizing an excessive time-out is to do so whenever it is discovered at any future point in the game. The team doesn't get a free pass just because the time-out is over and the ball has been made live again or the game has now advanced to the next quarter.

How a governing authority could issue rulings that are diametrically opposite in the fundamental principle is unfathomable.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Note that the ruling by the NFHS for penalizing an excessive time-out is to do so whenever it is discovered at any future point in the game. The team doesn't get a free pass just because the time-out is over and the ball has been made live again or the game has now advanced to the next quarter.

2007-08 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 11: A1 requests and is granted an excessive time-out. The excessive time-out is discovered (a) immediately; (b) when A1 has the ball at his/her disposal for a throw-in following the time-out; (c) during a dead ball after three minutes have elapsed off the game clock. RULING: In (a), (b) and (c), assess a team technical foul to Team A for the excessive time-out. Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. The penalty for an excessive time-out is assessed when discovered. (10-1-7 Penalty)

[BayStateRef]

There is a key difference between the penalty for adding a name to the book and an excessive time out. The first is penalized "when it occurs" and the second "when discovered."

There are many rules and situations where it is "too late" to penalize. The scorer failed to notice the illegal entry. That player did not score or commit a foul, so his presence was not officially recognized. It seems to me the interpretation is in line with the rule (10-1 Penalty) that makes a distinction between "when it occurs" and "when discovered."

Look at the case play 10.1.2, which says that if the name is added late to the book and the ball is made live without the technical foul being assessed, "it is too late to penalize."

[Lcubed48]

I had to call 2 team technicals for wrong numbers in the book last week. Yuk!

1) B8 - The visiting score keeper simply writes in the wrong number.

2) GV - The visiting score keeper asks each player for their number. The player gets it wrong.

OK, No more of this please!