adding name to book

[BryanV21]

I check the book at approximately the 12 minute mark, that way teams have time to make changes/additions if necessary without penalty. Then, when all is well, I will make a mark after the last name and sign my initials. That way, if a change is made after I've checked things out, I can tell and act accordingly.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jritchie

So player checks in, not in book, no one says nothing, they play, couple minutes go by, scorer says not in book, TOO LATE RIGHT? That is what I thought was pretty clear.

Ugh... pretty clearly incorrect. Several people have answered this quite clearly. I'm not getting your confusion.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

What is the T for?

This (as you well know):

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Remember, the technical foul isn't for the undocumented team member participating in the game, its for adding his name, and number, to the scorebook.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I check the book at approximately the 12 minute mark, that way teams have time to make changes/additions if necessary without penalty. Then, when all is well, I will make a mark after the last name and sign my initials. That way, if a change is made after I've checked things out, I can tell and act accordingly.

I do the same thing, but it isn't as if there's anything physically preventing them from erasing that line and writing another name and number in there without telling you.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Adam

I do the same thing, but it isn't as if there's anything physically preventing them from erasing that line and writing another name and number in there without telling you.

Meh... true. I guess we just feel better doing it. LOL

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Meh... true. I guess we just feel better doing it. LOL

I think it would help an honest scorer pause to think.

[SNIPERBBB]

We wait till after 10 here to check the book. Most of the time the books are still trying to get everything copied fairly close to the 10 minute mark(of course there is nothing saying that the books have to be done at 10 minutes just the rosters need submitted) here when its the second/third game of the night.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first
time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned
onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2.
The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in
the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During
halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook
and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of
the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a
player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number
must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A.
In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25
attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will
be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-
1-2b)

Remember, during intermissions, all team members are bench personnel.

This is one of the recent and in my opinion INCORRECT rulings published by the NFHS. Over the past five years, the NFHS issued some really poor rulings which don't mesh with the text of the rules book.

If one consults rule 2-11-1, one will see that the scorer is required to keep a record of all team members who start the game and all substitutes who enter.

So where is such a record kept by the scorer? It isn't in a notebook in his pocket. Yep, this record must be kept in the official scorebook. In order to accurately do this, the team member who participated in the first half must now have his name and number entered. The penalty for that is a team technical foul.

Note that the ruling by the NFHS for penalizing an excessive time-out is to do so whenever it is discovered at any future point in the game. The team doesn't get a free pass just because the time-out is over and the ball has been made live again or the game has now advanced to the next quarter.

How a governing authority could issue rulings that are diametrically opposite in the fundamental principle is unfathomable.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Note that the ruling by the NFHS for penalizing an excessive time-out is to do so whenever it is discovered at any future point in the game. The team doesn't get a free pass just because the time-out is over and the ball has been made live again or the game has now advanced to the next quarter.

2007-08 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 11: A1 requests and is granted an excessive time-out. The excessive time-out is discovered (a) immediately; (b) when A1 has the ball at his/her disposal for a throw-in following the time-out; (c) during a dead ball after three minutes have elapsed off the game clock. RULING: In (a), (b) and (c), assess a team technical foul to Team A for the excessive time-out. Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. The penalty for an excessive time-out is assessed when discovered. (10-1-7 Penalty)

[BayStateRef]

There is a key difference between the penalty for adding a name to the book and an excessive time out. The first is penalized "when it occurs" and the second "when discovered."

There are many rules and situations where it is "too late" to penalize. The scorer failed to notice the illegal entry. That player did not score or commit a foul, so his presence was not officially recognized. It seems to me the interpretation is in line with the rule (10-1 Penalty) that makes a distinction between "when it occurs" and "when discovered."

Look at the case play 10.1.2, which says that if the name is added late to the book and the ball is made live without the technical foul being assessed, "it is too late to penalize."

[Lcubed48]

I had to call 2 team technicals for wrong numbers in the book last week. Yuk!

1) B8 - The visiting score keeper simply writes in the wrong number.

2) GV - The visiting score keeper asks each player for their number. The player gets it wrong.

OK, No more of this please!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Lcubed48

I had to call 2 team technicals for wrong numbers in the book last week. Yuk!

1) B8 - The visiting score keeper simply writes in the wrong number.

2) GV - The visiting score keeper asks each player for their number. The player gets it wrong.

OK, No more of this please!

I'm a little confused by both of those. Why do we care what the visitor's book has?

[Lcubed48]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm a little confused by both of those. Why do we care what the visitor's book has?

We don't, of course. But in checking out the situations, the orginal errors were made in the visitors' books. They weren't errors made by the home score keeper copying incorrectly or transposing a number.

Pardon my misleading verbiage.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

There is a key difference between the penalty for adding a name to the book and an excessive time out. The first is penalized "when it occurs" and the second "when discovered."

There are many rules and situations where it is "too late" to penalize. The scorer failed to notice the illegal entry. That player did not score or commit a foul, so his presence was not officially recognized. It seems to me the interpretation is in line with the rule (10-1 Penalty) that makes a distinction between "when it occurs" and "when discovered."

Look at the case play 10.1.2, which says that if the name is added late to the book and the ball is made live without the technical foul being assessed, "it is too late to penalize."

You completely missed the point.
The fact that a team member who enters the game isn't properly on the team roster must be discovered before it can be penalized. The time of that discovery isn't up to the officials. It is solely upon the scorer. If the scorer does his job correctly, this should be caught when the team member reports as a substitute. If the scorer screws up and the kid goes into the game and then leaves prior to the infraction being detected that isn't the fault of either the game officials or the opposing team.
The problem with the NFHS Case Play ruling is that it makes it too easy for the home scorer to cheat when the infraction is by the home team. All that he has to do is wait until the kid is out of the game to inform the officials and there is no penalty. That's wrong!

As for the rest of your post, who is going to add a name to the book and fail to properly assess a T at that time? Not going to happen.
The only way that I'm ok with no penalty is if the coach withdraws the kid after he reports and is informed that he isn't on the roster. There used to be a description of that in the NFHS Simplified & Illustrated book. No penalty if he doesn't play.

Once he plays, the ruling must be consistent and not depend upon whether he fouls, scores, or gets a rebound. If he enters with 10 seconds remaining in the 2nd qtr and scores a basket as time expires in the half, what are you going to do--where do the points get recorded? Absolutely silly and wrong ruling by the NFHS author.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jritchie

So when they check in and the scorer just adds them without saying anything to us and they play, then the scorer says something later it's too late, but if they let them come in and don't add them to the book then let us know when they receive a foul or points it's now a T? I just don't get that interp from Case book play 10.1.2

And when it happens to favor the team associated with the scorer it raises an integrity issue.
I'm charging a T in all cases in which I know that the team member participated and was not properly listed on the team roster. That's how it was when I started officiating. Just because some fool working for the NFHS got it wrong a few years ago doesn't mean that I need to blindly follow down the same path.