help me understand this foul

[shagpal]

whoz space was it? was it the defenders space?

Originally Posted by BryanV21

That wasn't the shooter's space.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by shagpal

whoz space was it? was it the defenders space?

Why do you think the offense is more entitled to that space than the defense?

[ballgame99]

Regardless of who was in who's space, the contact was incidental and should have been a no call. As much contact as gets allowed in the game today and we call it incidental, you are going to call an offensive foul because a shooters foot hits a defender's leg? Come on.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Regardless of who was in who's space, the contact was incidental and should have been a no call. As much contact as gets allowed in the game today and we call it incidental, you are going to call an offensive foul because a shooters foot hits a defender's leg? Come on.

First of all, the contact caused the defender to fall. This isn't a case where one player just bumped into another and played on without incident.

Secondly, if the defender had fallen to the floor and hit his head, instead of falling and not getting hurt at all, would you still consider the contact to be okay?

In this play I wouldn't get up in arms about either call (offensive foul or no-call). I'm just saying that a foul call on the offense is justified here.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Secondly, if the defender had fallen to the floor and hit his head, instead of falling and not getting hurt at all, would you still consider the contact to be okay?

Whether or not a player gets hurt as a result of contact has no bearing on that contact being legal or illegal. This is not the correct way to determine if you are going to call a foul or not and should not influence you in either direction.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Whether or not a player gets hurt as a result of contact has no bearing on that contact being legal or illegal. This is not the correct way to determine if you are going to call a foul or not and should not influence you in either direction.

I didn't say that. You're taking what I said out of context.

It's true... you're not going to have a foul every time somebody falls. Which is why I said I'd be fine with a no-call in this situation.

[Camron Rust]

I see this as a bush league play by the offense and I want them to stop it. If I think they put they foot out on purpose and it trips someone (they did, and it did in this case), I'm calling an offensive foul. The fact that only the NBA has a POE on this doesn't indicate that the underlying rules are different (they're the same), just that the NBA made it a POE.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I didn't say that. You're taking what I said out of context.

It's true... you're not going to have a foul every time somebody falls. Which is why I said I'd be fine with a no-call in this situation.

How did I take what you said out of context? You asked if somebody would change their mind from not calling a foul to calling a foul not because the defender fell, but because he got hurt. I never claimed you said you or anybody else would change their mind because a player fell. I did say, using an injury or lack thereof to determine whether or not a foul occurred is not a criteria to determine whether or not a player's actions constitute a foul. Seems to me my response is in the exact context of your post.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Regardless of who was in who's space, the contact was incidental and should have been a no call. As much contact as gets allowed in the game today and we call it incidental, you are going to call an offensive foul because a shooters foot hits a defender's leg? Come on.

WE are not officiating NBA games, which has a different set of marching orders.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

WE are not officiating NBA games, which has a different set of marching orders.

This.

I'd have a no call here in a game I'm working. The NBA has their own POEs that don't match ours.

I really don't think we can criticize this call in a vacuum.

[ballgame99]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I'd have a no call here in a game I'm working. The NBA has their own POEs that don't match ours.
I really don't think we can criticize this call in a vacuum.

Agree here, I'm speaking in general terms about the call. And Bryan, bodies hit the floor all the time. It doesn't mean it was illegal contact that sent them there.

[Jay R]

Steve Javie (former NBA ref) was with the announcers crew yesterday in the ABC/ESPN game (Bulls-Lakers). They spoke at length on air about the officials and the officiating. Kind of neat. At one point, they showed the Kyle Lowry play in question. Javie felt a no call would have been better in this instance. Pehaps in hindsight, Eric Lewis might have no called it as well. Unfortunately, the decision has to be made instantly.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by shagpal

whoz space was it? was it the defenders space?

At the time of the shot, the space belongs to nobody. Therefore it is perfectly legal for the defender to jump there.

However, by kicking his feet into that space, the shooter is hindering the defender's ability to make a normal and legal move.

I like to think of a player's "space" this way...

At that player's spot, imagine if they are in a tube. Like the ones participants in the Hunger Games are in before entering the arena (did I just out myself as a nerd?). The player can move up and down in that space all they want, and they are legal. But, if a player reaches out beyond that tube, then we have a problem. And that goes for the offense or defense.

If the player moves to that spot first, meaning actually stepping there and not just reaching there with an arm or leg, then he/she is all good.