Question from my state's fan site...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Sure, but what happens if the coach stays at the table, they call the officials over for a CE. Then, when we don't fix the CE (because it isn't one), don't have to charge a TO?

Don't have my book at work, so I could be off on this.

Correct. The coach takes the risk of the CE challenge costing him the time-out. Remember the rule states that the coach goes to the table to request a time-out. It simply isn't charged if a CE is corrected or prevented.

Anyone who wouldn't charge the excessive TO and the accompanying team technical foul is just wrong and making up his/her own rulings.

[Scuba_ref]

This is not a correctable error, it is a timing issue and in my opinion the TO vs TF doesn't come into play.

There are 5 correctable errors; 4 deal with free throws and the 5th with counting/or not a score.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Scuba_ref

This is not a correctable error, it is a timing issue and in my opinion the TO vs TF doesn't come into play.

There are 5 correctable errors; 4 deal with free throws and the 5th with counting/or not a score.

You may wish to consult the text of the rule. It not only covers CEs, but also timing and AP/scoring errors.

Rule 5, Section 8
ART. 4

Responds to the scorer's signal to grant a coach's request that a correctable error, as in 2-10, or a timing, scoring or alternating-possession mistake be prevented or rectified. The appeal to the official shall be presented at the scorer's table where a coach of each team may be present.

[bainsey]

I appreciate the thoughts thus far.

I can't see you can possibly continue the game with 21 seconds. While you don't have definite knowledge of the exact time that elapsed, you do have definite knowledge that SOME time should have gone off the clock, particularly after three passes. It can't be zero seconds.

You can consider any backcourt or closely guarded counts in your estimate, or find other ways to find a good number, but zero can't be it, and if you went with zero, you have to charge the team with a technical foul.

[Drizzle]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I appreciate the thoughts thus far.

I can't see you can possibly continue the game with 21 seconds. While you don't have definite knowledge of the exact time that elapsed, you do have definite knowledge that SOME time should have gone off the clock, particularly after three passes. It can't be zero seconds.

You can consider any backcourt or closely guarded counts in your estimate, or find other ways to find a good number, but zero can't be it, and if you went with zero, you have to charge the team with a technical foul.

Rule 5-10-1 REQUIRES definite knowledge when you're adjusting the clock. So you can use any counts any official had during the period where the clock should have been running, but if no such count exists, you're sticking with 21 seconds. Yes, it stinks, but that's the rule.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I appreciate the thoughts thus far.

I can't see you can possibly continue the game with 21 seconds. While you don't have definite knowledge of the exact time that elapsed, you do have definite knowledge that SOME time should have gone off the clock, particularly after three passes. It can't be zero seconds.

You can consider any backcourt or closely guarded counts in your estimate, or find other ways to find a good number, but zero can't be it, and if you went with zero, you have to charge the team with a technical foul.

To be clear, one cannot estimate! In this case, you can use ANY count that an official has once the ball gains inbounds status to alter the clock (10-sec or five second or if an official notices the clock isn't running and begins to count) and sum them all, but what you may not do is subtract time from the clock in the absence of any count.
You may not like it, but the game must be timed according to the rules, not according to what makes logical sense.
Officials should not be expected to perform the duties of either the timer or scorer. Mistakes happen and those people screw up from time to time. People need to learn that the officials can only fix so much. The rest they have to accept and move on.
Btw in the case of a team being out of TOs, I would definitely start a count on the inbounds so that a minimum of one second could be corrected and the technical foul avoid BY RULE. What I won't do is fail to adhere to the rules.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I appreciate the thoughts thus far.

I can't see you can possibly continue the game with 21 seconds. While you don't have definite knowledge of the exact time that elapsed, you do have definite knowledge that SOME time should have gone off the clock, particularly after three passes. It can't be zero seconds.

You can consider any backcourt or closely guarded counts in your estimate, or find other ways to find a good number, but zero can't be it, and if you went with zero, you have to charge the team with a technical foul.

You may not need exact knowledge, but you need to have some definite "at least this much" knowledge. Chances are, in this situation, you've at least had 1 second of a 5 second count, but if you haven't, then you can't take any time off by rule. Now, nothing says you have to have a 5 second count to be counting.

Otherwise, if you say "why not just take one second off", others will say "Well, I know it was at least 5 seconds". I'm not much for slippery slope arguments, but it seems the rule is the way it is for a reason.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Adam

You may not need exact knowledge, but you need to have some definite "at least this much" knowledge. Chances are, in this situation, you've at least had 1 second of a 5 second count, but if you haven't, then you can't take any time off by rule. Now, nothing says you have to have a 5 second count to be counting.

Otherwise, if you say "why not just take one second off", others will say "Well, I know it was at least 5 seconds". I'm not much for slippery slope arguments, but it seems the rule is the way it is for a reason.

So what if the in bounds pass goes into the front court and A takes 4 seconds after having the ball in their possession to start running a play, then B decided so closely guard and then You have a count to 4 and then realize the clock hasn't started. Could you just take off the four seconds for the closely guarded but do nothing about the other four seconds as no one was actually counting anything?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So what if the in bounds pass goes into the front court and A takes 4 seconds after having the ball in their possession to start running a play, then B decided so closely guard and then You have a count to 4 and then realize the clock hasn't started. Could you just take off the four seconds for the closely guarded but do nothing about the other four seconds as no one was actually counting anything?

Yes, because I have no idea how long B took standing there without playing defense unless I had a count. By rule, you need definite knowledge. In your case, I have definite knowledge 4 seconds should come off.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I appreciate the thoughts thus far.

I can't see you can possibly continue the game with 21 seconds. While you don't have definite knowledge of the exact time that elapsed, you do have definite knowledge that SOME time should have gone off the clock, particularly after three passes. It can't be zero seconds.

You can consider any backcourt or closely guarded counts in your estimate, or find other ways to find a good number, but zero can't be it, and if you went with zero, you have to charge the team with a technical foul.

Agreed. "Have" a count of something. Team A won't complain because they know that some time should come off the clock. Team B won't complain because some time did come off the clock.

In your head, keep a count. Even do an arm swing if you wish.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Agreed. "Have" a count of something. Team A won't complain because they know that some time should come off the clock. Team B won't complain because some time did come off the clock.

In your head, keep a count. Even do an arm swing if you wish.

The officials who do this are also the officials who would have noticed the clock not running in the first place, and would correct the error without notification from the coach.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by badnewsref

the officials who do this are also the officials who would have noticed the clock not running in the first place, and would correct the error without notification from the coach.

+∞

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by bainsey

While you don't have definite knowledge of the exact time that elapsed, you do have definite knowledge that SOME time should have gone off the clock, particularly after three passes. It can't be zero seconds.

This is how my association interprets this. I was taught that in a situation like this (where it is definately not zero or close to zero), briefly get together with your partner(s) if necessary and start asking yourself ... "Was it definately at least one second (yes); was it definately at least two seconds (yes) ... was it definatly at least five seconds (not sure) -- Subtract four seconds off the clock as you have definite knowledge that at least four seconds have elapsed.

[rlarry]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

This is how my association interprets this. I was taught that in a situation like this (where it is definately not zero or close to zero), briefly get together with your partner(s) if necessary and start asking yourself ... "Was it definately at least one second (yes); was it definately at least two seconds (yes) ... was it definatly at least five seconds (not sure) -- Subtract four seconds off the clock as you have definite knowledge that at least four seconds have elapsed.

I personally have a problem with that. i interpet definite knowledge as a count. 10 sec backcourt, 5 second closely guarded even a silent 3 sec. count not an agreed upon guess by the crew. Last time the mrs. and i had marital relations, I say it lasted 10 secs, she swears 2, unfortunately the clock never started.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by rlarry

I personally have a problem with that. i interpet definite knowledge as a count. 10 sec backcourt, 5 second closely guarded even a silent 3 sec. count not an agreed upon guess by the crew. Last time the mrs. and i had marital relations, I say it lasted 10 secs, she swears 2, unfortunately the clock never started.

If you can agree that at least 2 seconds elapsed, you have definite knowledge.

Definite knowledge doesn't always mean *exact* knowledge.