Question from my state's fan site...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Ref16

Well said.

Without definite knowledge of how much time should have passed then 21 seconds will remain on the clock. The coach handled it correctly, the score keeper needed to get the referees attention at that point.

The coach could have stayed at the table and /or returned to the table once s/he realized that the timer didn't sound the horn.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The coach could have stayed at the table and /or returned to the table once s/he realized that the timer didn't sound the horn.

Sure, but what happens if the coach stays at the table, they call the officials over for a CE. Then, when we don't fix the CE (because it isn't one), don't have to charge a TO?

Don't have my book at work, so I could be off on this.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Adam

Sure, but what happens if the coach stays at the table, they call the officials over for a CE. Then, when we don't fix the CE (because it isn't one), don't have to charge a TO?

Don't have my book at work, so I could be off on this.

I for one wouldn't. This wasn't intended by the rules, nor should we punish the coach for our complete lack of competence. Besides the ball is dead and the coach has a legitimate gripe. WE may not be able to fix it, but we shouldn't compound it either.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Sure, but what happens if the coach stays at the table, they call the officials over for a CE. Then, when we don't fix the CE (because it isn't one), don't have to charge a TO?

Don't have my book at work, so I could be off on this.

Correct. The coach takes the risk of the CE challenge costing him the time-out. Remember the rule states that the coach goes to the table to request a time-out. It simply isn't charged if a CE is corrected or prevented.

Anyone who wouldn't charge the excessive TO and the accompanying team technical foul is just wrong and making up his/her own rulings.

[Scuba_ref]

This is not a correctable error, it is a timing issue and in my opinion the TO vs TF doesn't come into play.

There are 5 correctable errors; 4 deal with free throws and the 5th with counting/or not a score.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Scuba_ref

This is not a correctable error, it is a timing issue and in my opinion the TO vs TF doesn't come into play.

There are 5 correctable errors; 4 deal with free throws and the 5th with counting/or not a score.

You may wish to consult the text of the rule. It not only covers CEs, but also timing and AP/scoring errors.

Rule 5, Section 8
ART. 4

Responds to the scorer's signal to grant a coach's request that a correctable error, as in 2-10, or a timing, scoring or alternating-possession mistake be prevented or rectified. The appeal to the official shall be presented at the scorer's table where a coach of each team may be present.

[bainsey]

I appreciate the thoughts thus far.

I can't see you can possibly continue the game with 21 seconds. While you don't have definite knowledge of the exact time that elapsed, you do have definite knowledge that SOME time should have gone off the clock, particularly after three passes. It can't be zero seconds.

You can consider any backcourt or closely guarded counts in your estimate, or find other ways to find a good number, but zero can't be it, and if you went with zero, you have to charge the team with a technical foul.

[Drizzle]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I appreciate the thoughts thus far.

I can't see you can possibly continue the game with 21 seconds. While you don't have definite knowledge of the exact time that elapsed, you do have definite knowledge that SOME time should have gone off the clock, particularly after three passes. It can't be zero seconds.

You can consider any backcourt or closely guarded counts in your estimate, or find other ways to find a good number, but zero can't be it, and if you went with zero, you have to charge the team with a technical foul.

Rule 5-10-1 REQUIRES definite knowledge when you're adjusting the clock. So you can use any counts any official had during the period where the clock should have been running, but if no such count exists, you're sticking with 21 seconds. Yes, it stinks, but that's the rule.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I appreciate the thoughts thus far.

I can't see you can possibly continue the game with 21 seconds. While you don't have definite knowledge of the exact time that elapsed, you do have definite knowledge that SOME time should have gone off the clock, particularly after three passes. It can't be zero seconds.

You can consider any backcourt or closely guarded counts in your estimate, or find other ways to find a good number, but zero can't be it, and if you went with zero, you have to charge the team with a technical foul.

To be clear, one cannot estimate! In this case, you can use ANY count that an official has once the ball gains inbounds status to alter the clock (10-sec or five second or if an official notices the clock isn't running and begins to count) and sum them all, but what you may not do is subtract time from the clock in the absence of any count.
You may not like it, but the game must be timed according to the rules, not according to what makes logical sense.
Officials should not be expected to perform the duties of either the timer or scorer. Mistakes happen and those people screw up from time to time. People need to learn that the officials can only fix so much. The rest they have to accept and move on.
Btw in the case of a team being out of TOs, I would definitely start a count on the inbounds so that a minimum of one second could be corrected and the technical foul avoid BY RULE. What I won't do is fail to adhere to the rules.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I appreciate the thoughts thus far.

I can't see you can possibly continue the game with 21 seconds. While you don't have definite knowledge of the exact time that elapsed, you do have definite knowledge that SOME time should have gone off the clock, particularly after three passes. It can't be zero seconds.

You can consider any backcourt or closely guarded counts in your estimate, or find other ways to find a good number, but zero can't be it, and if you went with zero, you have to charge the team with a technical foul.

You may not need exact knowledge, but you need to have some definite "at least this much" knowledge. Chances are, in this situation, you've at least had 1 second of a 5 second count, but if you haven't, then you can't take any time off by rule. Now, nothing says you have to have a 5 second count to be counting.

Otherwise, if you say "why not just take one second off", others will say "Well, I know it was at least 5 seconds". I'm not much for slippery slope arguments, but it seems the rule is the way it is for a reason.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I appreciate the thoughts thus far.

I can't see you can possibly continue the game with 21 seconds. While you don't have definite knowledge of the exact time that elapsed, you do have definite knowledge that SOME time should have gone off the clock, particularly after three passes. It can't be zero seconds.

You can consider any backcourt or closely guarded counts in your estimate, or find other ways to find a good number, but zero can't be it, and if you went with zero, you have to charge the team with a technical foul.

Agreed. "Have" a count of something. Team A won't complain because they know that some time should come off the clock. Team B won't complain because some time did come off the clock.

In your head, keep a count. Even do an arm swing if you wish.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by bainsey

While you don't have definite knowledge of the exact time that elapsed, you do have definite knowledge that SOME time should have gone off the clock, particularly after three passes. It can't be zero seconds.

This is how my association interprets this. I was taught that in a situation like this (where it is definately not zero or close to zero), briefly get together with your partner(s) if necessary and start asking yourself ... "Was it definately at least one second (yes); was it definately at least two seconds (yes) ... was it definatly at least five seconds (not sure) -- Subtract four seconds off the clock as you have definite knowledge that at least four seconds have elapsed.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Scuba_ref

This is not a correctable error, it is a timing issue and in my opinion the TO vs TF doesn't come into play.

There are 5 correctable errors; 4 deal with free throws and the 5th with counting/or not a score.

Oftentimes people forget that those correctable errors refer to errors made by officials. Any error made by scorers/timers can be corrected.

[Scuba_ref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Oftentimes people forget that those correctable errors refer to errors made by officials. Any error made by scorers/timers can be corrected.

My point was not that this isn't something that can't be corrected, but rather that this error shouldn't cost a team a time out. As officials we need to know the status of the clock and we need to be in the habit on making sure that the clock runs when it is supposed to and stops when it should.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Scuba_ref

My point was not that this isn't something that can't be corrected, but rather that this error shouldn't cost a team a time out.

And you are incorrect about that. In post #13 of this thread I provided the rule for you and it clearly includes a timing mistake.

Thus if a coach wants to contend that a timing error occurred and no correction can be made, then BY RULE it will cost his team a time-out.