POI or Not?

[APG]

Holy cow that's a lot of shorthand there...DTF? ST? FTF? Pretty sure we allow more than 140 characters per post here....

All double fouls go to the point of interruption...

A's ball for the throw-in

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by apg

holy cow that's a lot of shorthand there...dtf? St? Ftf? Pretty sure we allow more than 140 characters per post here....

All double fouls go to the point of interruption...

A's ball for the throw-in

itiawtbincwata.

[JetMetFan]

I actually understood the shorthand on the first try!

NFHS 10-6-11-1c
No free throws...for double personal or technical fouls (point of interruption).

NCAAM & W 4-27-1d
Point of interruption is the point in a game in which a stoppage in play occurs. The point of interruption is based on both the location of the ball and the team in control and is used to determine where to resume play because of...any double foul or simultaneous personal foul, as in Rule 4-15 unless only one of the fouls is a flagrant foul.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I knew which NFHS and NCAA Rules apply but there are two possible answers to my POI question. I will reference NFHS Rules because the situation occurred in a H.S. game.


What do we know?

1) The Ball was Dead when the DTF occurred.

2) There is no TC when the Ball is Dead.

3) NFHS R4-S36-A2b: "Play shall be resumed by a free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such."

4) NFHS R4-S36-A2c: "Play shall be resumed by a jump ball or alternating-possession throw-in when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved when the game is interrupted."


APG has said that the Ball should be put back into play after the TO with a Throw-in by Team A. Is that correct?

A) R4-S36-A2c says that since the DTF occurred while the Ball was Dead (meaning there was no TC by either Team when the DTF occurred) then the Ball is put back into play via the AP Arrow: Team B is awarded a AP Throw-in after the TO is over.

B) But, since the DTF occurs after Team A's request for a TO was recognized by the Game Officials, one could use R4-S36-2b to imply that the DTF occurs during Team A's TO and therefore the Ball is put back into play by Team A after Team A's TO has ended.


Which is the correct POI? A or B?

I am leaning toward B, but if I were a betting man (and I am) I would say that A is the correct POI.

MTD, Sr.

[just another ref]

POI was the timeout. Play should be resumed as usual after the timeout. Live or dead ball is not the determining factor here. If the DF occurs while a try is in flight or immediately after a made basket, the ball is live in one case and dead in the other but there is no TC in either. But the arrow is not used here either.

[JetMetFan]

At least I understood the shorthand

POI is Team A's TO or, specifically, the throw-in after Team A's TO. That's where the proceedings would have resumed so that's where you pick up.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

3) NFHS R4-S36-A2b: "Play shall be resumed by a free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such."

This is the only part that matters. A gets the throw-in.

Don't go to Vegas.

[Raymond]

Saying there is no TC b/c the ball is dead is making this way more complicated than it needs to be. It's a DF foul and the POI is A's throw-in after the time-out.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Saying there is no TC b/c the ball is dead is making this way more complicated than it needs to be. It's a DF foul and the POI is A's throw-in after the time-out.

But BNR, there is no TC when the Ball is Dead, and that is when the DTF occurred.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Mark, A is entitled to a throw in when the DTF occurs. That is your point of interruption.

[BktBallRef]

You're over complicating the situation, Mark. POI is correct, A's ball for throw-in.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

This is the only part that matters. A gets the throw-in.

Don't go to Vegas.

Agree with bob.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I knew which NFHS and NCAA Rules apply but there are two possible answers to my POI question. I will reference NFHS Rules because the situation occurred in a H.S. game.


What do we know?

1) The Ball was Dead when the DTF occurred.

2) There is no TC when the Ball is Dead.

3) NFHS R4-S36-A2b: "Play shall be resumed by a free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such."

4) NFHS R4-S36-A2c: "Play shall be resumed by a jump ball or alternating-possession throw-in when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved when the game is interrupted."


APG has said that the Ball should be put back into play after the TO with a Throw-in by Team A. Is that correct?

A) R4-S36-A2c says that since the DTF occurred while the Ball was Dead (meaning there was no TC by either Team when the DTF occurred) then the Ball is put back into play via the AP Arrow: Team B is awarded a AP Throw-in after the TO is over.

B) But, since the DTF occurs after Team A's request for a TO was recognized by the Game Officials, one could use R4-S36-2b to imply that the DTF occurs during Team A's TO and therefore the Ball is put back into play by Team A after Team A's TO has ended.


Which is the correct POI? A or B?

I am leaning toward B, but if I were a betting man (and I am) I would say that A is the correct POI.

MTD, Sr.

Since all others have already correctly informed you that a throw-in by Team A is the proper way to resume the game, I will only add an additional bit of reasoning in the hope that it will help clarify for you how to administer this situation.
Under NFHS rules the POI rule is a 3-step process, you will note that the rules are labelled a, b, and c. You need to start with part a and proceed onward to part c, stopping once you reach the part which fits your situation.

In your case, no team had control when the DTF occurred as the ball was already dead due to the whistle in recognition of the time-out request, so part a doesn't apply. Moving on to part b we realize that a team is entitled to an ensuing throw-in so the text of part b fits and tells us our POI. Since we never reach part c, the AP arrow doesn't become an option in this situation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Since all others have already correctly informed you that a throw-in by Team A is the proper way to resume the game, I will only add an additional bit of reasoning in the hope that it will help clarify for you how to administer this situation.
Under NFHS rules the POI rule is a 3-step process, you will note that the rules are labelled a, b, and c. You need to start with part a and proceed onward to part c, stopping once you reach the part which fits your situation.

In your case, no team had control when the DTF occurred as the ball was already dead due to the whistle in recognition of the time-out request, so part a doesn't apply. Moving on to part b we realize that a team is entitled to an ensuing throw-in so the text of part b fits and tells us our POI. Since we never reach part c, the AP arrow doesn't become an option in this situation.

Nevada:

I skipped A2a because it does not apply to this play.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Nevada:

I skipped A2a because it does not apply to this play.

MTD, Sr.

As you should have done, but then after reading A2b you should have ceased your analysis and not continued on to A2c, because A2b DOES apply. So that's it--Stop right there--You have your answer.

I don't know if during your thought process you were conscious that you were progressing through a list and properly passing through A2a or just did it automatically. My post was intended to help you realize the stepwise process logically and clearly, so that you would then be able to easily determine the correct POI application for not only the play at hand, but any future situation.